I won't make any friends here with this, but here it is anyway...

[DaveB]

Here's a lovely explination of American politics since the New Deal, as explained to some cheese-eating surrender monkeys and Chocolate-Makers.

I could quibble with some of his points, but not with his conclusions.

Read the article at http://tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/9118

...The fallout from this has been extreme. Trickle-down economics have returned to America, with the inevitable economic downturn and unemployment riding sidecar. The Federal Treasury, once full to bursting, has been looted completely. This, in the end, was the mission. That money could not be allowed to stay in the Treasury, because the American people would have expected it to be used to fund the programs they depend on. The Bush administration moved every penny of that money into the wealthiest portions of the private sector, using 9/11 and terrorism and fear and war as an excuse to storm the trenches their forefathers had been shooting into for over 70 years. It was a smash-and-grab robbery writ large...

Hope this helps.

db

 

[rock jock]

So you agree that reducing the tax burden on folks is a bad thing?

Yep, socialism is not too popular on this board.

 

[Art Eatman]

"If A, then B." is assumed to always be a causal relationship by this author, even if the events are merely accidentally sequential. Not unusual, at the sophomore level...

"The activism of the Federal government brought about racial desegregation and the rise of minority rights, something a segment of the right finds unacceptable to this day."

This presumes a very small tail wagging a very large dog.

"The activism of the federal government made it difficult for unrestricted free-market loyalists to secure the privatization of available mass markets like health care, insurance and Social Security."

Er, no. Health care and insurance have always been privatized. Compared to government run systems, ours is higher in quality and timeliness. The desire to privatize part or all of Social Security is an effort to do better than a 2% return on investment, increasing the amount of available funds.

"The activism of the Federal government kept mega-businesses from the ability to grow to whatever size they pleased, even though such growth was death to the basic capitalist concept of competition."

Total garbage, considering the size of, say, GM and others. And they all seem to compete in the marketplace, what with Toyotas and Nissans and Fords and...and...

"In a corner of their hearts, many who stood against FDR's plans did so because the rise of an activist Federal government smelled a little too much like Soviet-style communism for comfort."

What's wrong with that?

"The Right howled that such an activist government would require the American people to be taxed to death."

Well, not to death. However, taxes at all levels are greatly contributory to the necessity of both parents being employed outside the home.

"The Right howled that public schooling did not work, and they de-funded public education on the state and local levels to prove their point."

"De-funded"? Again, total BS. The rate of increase in dollars to schools has been greater than the average inflation rate, or the growth in GDP. Inefficiency in the use of these funds has also followed the same curve. (I just got my annual ad valorem tax statement, and I can remember the changes over the last 20 years.)

"The Right invented bugaboos like the "welfare queen," with her Cadillac and 10 children, who avoided working and lived off the sweat from the honest man's brow."

While the numbers of such are exaggerated, it was not "invented" but, rather, observed. And who else's money is used to support them but those who do indeed work?

"Often, the American people listened to their arguments. The rise of Ronald Reagan is evidence that their message had strength, if not merit."

Hoo-hah. We could have stayed with Carter, of course. His policies gave us an inflation rate in the middle teens, similar to third-world countries. Interest rates of that magnitude are not at all conducive to economic well-being, much less growth.

Charity would allow this nattering a grade of, oh, D-.

Art

 

[emc]

Art, you're being charitable! I would consider the D to be more than this individual deserves. It's one thing to be ignorant of the necessary cause and effect. I have the suspicion that this polemic is deliberately skewed, which implies knowledge that the facts speak to other conclusions than what were stated.

FWIW,

Ed

 

[Sergeant Bob]

I won't make any friends here with this, but here it is anyway...

Oh, I wouldn't say that. I'm sure a couple of our resident socialists will pop up in support.

 

[gunsmith]

Tompaine.com=skullduggery

it's like having a website called Lenin.com and have it be pro capitalism.
Tom Paine is rolling over in his grave,and the folks who run that website
should be hung untill they learn some history.

 

[Mark Tyson]

Hmmm . . . not sure what to think. I do want to keep some of these government programs that I think make people's lives better, but I don't like the tone of this article.

Though Gore won the election, the margin of victory was small enough to be exposed to theft by a partisan Supreme Court which, by rights, should not have come within a country mile of touching that case.

No, Bush won the election. We Democrats should admit this. This is just sour grapes. The Electoral College did exactly what it was supposed to do by not allowing populous states to dominate politics(at least not so much). While this supreme court is reviled as "partisan" and "conservative" actually they have proven otherwise with their quite liberal rulings, most of which I agree with. Anyway it was the Gore supporters who pushed the issue to the Supreme Court in the first place.

the news media in Europe is not owned and operated as an advertising wing for General Electric, AOL/TimeWarner, Viacom, Disney or Rupert Murdoch.

I do think the consolidation of media providers into a small number of huge, interconnected companies is troubling. Nevertheless, overall I don't think there's a great liberal or conservative bias in the media. I also try to check out the BBC regularly, and they're pretty biased when it comes to certain issues here in the states(you know what I mean).

he impeachment, funded by right-wing activists and business interests, stormed along by a mainstream media whose Reagan-era deregulated status led to a complete breakdown in journalistic ethics, and all buttressed by years of unsubstantiated scandals pushed along by congressional zealots

. . . blah blah blah. Clinton was a lout in his personal life. I disagreed with the impeachment but I think he should have resigned. That would be the honorable thing to do. Honor obviously has no part of Bill's life.

In a corner of their hearts, many who stood against FDR's plans did so because the rise of an activist Federal government smelled a little too much like Soviet-style communism for comfort.

Actually, I agree very much that the federal government should play an active role in the economy. Unrestricted deregulation and a roll back of government programs/agencies that the market does a poor job of providing is a prescription for disaster.

Overall, while I am somewhat liberal in my non-gun views, I think that this article traipses into tin-foil helmet territory a little with its talk of grand plans coming to fruition.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Same old sore losers. Same old snivelling and whining. Tedious.

 

[Balog]

Gosh I love listening to socialist gun owners. "The government should tell us what to do. Except about guns." Almost as much illogical fun as debating an existenialist.

 

[G-Raptor]

The less money the government has, the less trouble they can cause and the better off we all are.

Hope they run out soon.

 

[Art Eatman]

Mark, it seems to me that the government's efforts at an active role in the economy is largely contributable to the horrible mess we're now in. ( admit to being a Contrarian of the Bill Bonner/Dan Jennings "school". )

Nixon's "freeing" us from any passing resemblance to a gold standard allowed the government's printing presses to work overtime. Going fast-forward, have you noticed the relationship between the US dollar and such currencies as the yen or euro? Yuck. Government's active role in the economy is largely responsible for the loss of buying power of the dollar--in real terms--and the general decline of the middle class...

"Gosh, I remember when my wife didn't HAVE to work! I could support my family all by myself."

, Art

 

[Bill Hook]

That money could not be allowed to stay in the Treasury, because the American people would have expected it to be used to fund the programs they depend on.

What are these?

I'm far from rich but I don't depend on any govt. programs and the services I use, I pay for, likely as much or more so than I would on the open market.

I was "educated" in publik skoolz since 2nd grade, but looking back, I'd have been better served from a private education, as my folks didn't get their tax dollars worth, IMO.

Getting bad, unaccountable services for "free" (taxes) is no bargain. I can't wait until we have to pay higher taxes for "free" medical care of declining quality and diminshing, rationed availability.

Social "Security" is something I expect to collect, even though I won't, or only at pennies on the dollar. My withholding would better serve me through setting up a trust that invested in balanced mutual and bond funds; instead, I pay the benefits of current retirees and will pay for the baby boomers, who outnumber those of us who are their children.

 

[DigitalWarrior]

I don't want government programs that make people's life better. They alwaysoccur at a very high cost to me. I want to be able to decide if I want to help someone.

 

[Silver Bullet]

I won't make any friends here with this

Why ? You're providing a platform and an opportunity to expose this writer's drivel.

 

[C.R.Sam]

"In a corner of their hearts, many who stood against FDR's plans did so because the rise of an activist Federal government smelled a little too much like Soviet-style communism for comfort."

Felt that way then, moreso now.

"Less government, more individual responsibility."....Welsh.

Sam

 

[ojibweindian]

I am currently paying over $1000 a month in taxes to acheive the liberal utopia. I worked my ??? off at a low-paying full time job, making $7 an hour, while raising two kids and going to college full time.

And now I am supposed to be happy giving up 1/4 of my paycheck to attain "equality". I scream BULL$HIT!!!! People are guaranteed the opportunity to succeed, not the right, especially when they're robbing from me.

So, guess what Dave, if you advocate taking my $$$ to care for the "needy" instead of me spending it on my wife and kids, then you can stuff it.

 

[Dex Sinister]

it's like having a website called Lenin.com and have it be pro capitalism.

Hmmmm. I note that Lenin.org seems to be available...

 

[Khornet]

Ojibway,

CORPSMAN UP!

(Weren't you a corpsman at one point? An EMT now?)

Anyhow, what you said.

 

[ojibweindian]

Khornet

Yep, was once a corpsman. Still am, at heart, but I am currently a software engineer. Will probably get out of engineering at some point and earn my BSN.

Funny how things go. I thought I'd like engineering, but I've found that it's rather boring, especially when compared with what I used to do.

Interesting thing is, I probably would like being an engineer but for my neighbor; he's an old Marine, and we like to toss a few back, make that a lot, and remember the good ole days

Were you a Devil Dog once?

 

[keederdag]

Nope, didnt make any friends here!

 

[benewton]

"Still am, at heart, but I am currently a software engineer."

Played Army medic, now twenty(+) years into hardware engineering, including embedded assembler, board layouts, and ect.

Can't really comment on SW engineering: my cube doesn't have padding on the ceiling!

Relax, enjoy, and learn.

Most especially, enjoy your work.

 

[Khornet]

USN Medical Officer

1981-1994.

"inevitable economic downturn"? Has the price of latte and brown rice gone up or something? 3rd quarter growth of the economy looks like it will be 5%....way better than anything in the Clinton years.

"That money couldn't be allowed to stay in the treasure, because the American people qould have expected it to be used for the programs they depend on." Depend on? That money in the treasury is our money, and IT depends on US for its existence. Not to Dave: the Govt produces no wealth. No goods or services. All of it comes from us taxpayers.

Ther are surely intelligent criticisms of the Bush admin. available, but they haven't been seen at Tom Paine.

 

[lapidator]

Trickle-down economics have returned to America, with the inevitable economic downturn and unemployment riding sidecar. The Federal Treasury, once full to bursting, has been looted completely

Hmm... Trickle-down economics was the prime reason for the economical boom of the middle/late 80s -- this boom created the capital gains that made the technology boom of the middle/late 90s possible. People with IQ's above room temp could figure out that the economic expansion rate during 1996-1999 was simply unsustainable, one journalist referred to it as "irrational exuberance".

The fact is that the federal treasury is now suffering from the lack of capital gains since 2001 -- that is, no capital gains taxes paid and many taking capital loss write-offs on the returns. The problem is that the fed didn't stop expanding when the economy did.

lapidator

 

[sensop]

JFK understood "trickle down economics". It's an example of "cause & effect".

"irrational exuberance" ... I thought that a Greenspan phrase.

Lest we forget (from Merriam-Webster Online):

Socialism: 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Communism: c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably

Since this is a cut'n'paste quote, I resisted my own quotes around the word "equitably"

Faith-based political ideologies kinda give other faith-based beliefs a bad name. :banghead:

 

[SodaPop]

I see a lot of Christian people get suckered into the socialism mentality.

Many Christians in the Democrat party confuse the difference between giving to the poor, and giving to the government that wastes money giving to the poor. I've dated girls that have said, "I don't mind paying more in taxes to help people". Put welfare and healthcare in that mindset and you have the mess we're in.

I've seen interviews with Gephart and several other *supposed* Christians and they think the government needs to help people. I think its their confused Christian/socialist beliefs. Its a shear lack of understanding about human nature.