identifying (and problems with) Mauser (?) bolt

[sixshooter]

I recently acquired a number of rifles from an old friend, and among them is what I think is a Mauser. It's fairly old, and shows signs of heavy use.

The issue I'm having is with the safety - it won't engage. I've searched all kids of fixes for this, but the bolt in my hands doesn't match exactly the ones in the videos, and the bolt tear-down guides mention features that I can't identify (eg: "Depress the retaining pin on the bolt sleeve with your thumb" - I can't see any "retaining pin").

 

[morcey2]

The retaining pin is a Model 98-and-later feature. You've got what looks like a Model 93 bolt. To engage the safety, you need to pull (or push) the cocking piece out enough to engage the safety. You can either hook the sear-engagement-surface at the front of the cocking piece on the top of something hard, push the bolt down against spring pressure, and flip the safety to straight up on the bolt when there is room.

Or, you just unscrew the bolt shroud the rest of the way and push the firing pin against something hard to compress the spring and then flip the safety. That way is a little easier, but can cause firing pin issues if you're not pressing straight on the firing pin.

Matt

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That's correct. The bolt must be cocked to engage the safety.

Simply insert the bolt into the rifle, after making sure it is properly assembled, and push it fully home and lock it down, and see if the safety will engage.

If the safety will only partially engage -- that is will come to the straight up position, but not all the way over to the right, check the locking pin and it's recess in the bolt handle. A burred or battered pin or recess can prevent the safety from going to full lock position.

 

[sixshooter]

thanks for the replies.

When the bolt is in the gun, it cocks and fires (dry fires, anyway - I haven't put ammo into it), but the safety won't engage at all. I did the push-the-sear-engagement-thingy-on-a-table thing, and the safety works fine then (of course), but in the gun it must not be engaging all the way. I'll have to take a look at the receiver and the sear and all that later (I only brought the bolt to work, figured the whole gun might cause... let's say "issues").

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Okay. We know what the problem is. When the gun cocks the cocking piece is not moving back far enough for the safety tab to engage its safety slot.

You probably need a new cocking piece.

 

[morcey2]

Okay. We know what the problem is. When the gun cocks the cocking piece is not moving back far enough for the safety tab to engage its safety slot.

You probably need a new cocking piece.

New cocking piece or new sear. Or both. Do you know if someone decided to do a "trigger job" on it before you got it?

Matt

BTW, if you need a new sear and it's a Spanish 1893 or 1916 (or other compatible model), I've got one that I'll never use that you can have.

 

[sixshooter]

Well, when I got home I reassembled it, and took a close look at the safety mechanism. I guess all the messing around with it must have realigned something, because now it functions fine. Thanks for all the replies, though! This was just one of those tech support "did you try turning it off and then back on again" things - just take it apart and put it back together, and it works.

 

[morcey2]

Good deal! Now make sure that when the safety is on and you pull the trigger that the gun doesn't fire when you take the safety off. The "bump test" is also good to try. With the safety off, bump the but of the gun firmly on the floor to make sure it doesn't go off on its own. It doesn't need to be really hard, but enough to jar the innards pretty good. If you break the stock, it was too hard.

Matt

 

[tark]

Somebody probably tried to smooth up the trigger pull by filing or stoning the sear surface on the firing pin. It wouldn't take much of this before the firing pin, held by the sear, would have moved forward, and the groove that the safety engages, along with it. Hence, the safety won't engage. Thanks to some idiot, you need a new firing pin.

 

[morcey2]

Somebody probably tried to smooth up the trigger pull by filing or stoning the sear surface on the firing pin. It wouldn't take much of this before the firing pin, held by the sear, would have moved forward, and the groove that the safety engages, along with it. Hence, the safety won't engage. Thanks to some idiot, you need a new firing pin.

There is no sear surface on the firing pin. It's on the cocking piece, which is a separate part from the firing pin.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There is no sear surface on the firing pin. It's on the cocking piece, which is a separate part from the firing pin.

And that surface on the cocking piece that contacts the sear is called the "bent."

Some of these guns have case-hardened surfaces, so trying to stone the sear or bent can cut through the case, exposing softer metal and causing a problem. I'd check to see if either sear or bent shows signs of tampering.

 

[sixshooter]

I don't see any signs of tampering, and as I said, it appears to be functioning normally now. What it DOES show is signs of HEAVY wear. I think this was a favorite piece used by several men in the family for decades. The bolt is sloppy (loose - it can be moved left to right quite a bit when pulled back to cock), and it just looks worn (see the pictures above).

Thanks for all the replies though. I love gathering info about my guns.

 

[sixshooter]

By the way...

You've got what looks like a Model 93 bolt.

what's the significance of this?

 

[morcey2]

I don't see any signs of tampering, and as I said, it appears to be functioning normally now. What it DOES show is signs of HEAVY wear. I think this was a favorite piece used by several men in the family for decades. The bolt is sloppy (loose - it can be moved left to right quite a bit when pulled back to cock), and it just looks worn (see the pictures above).

Thanks for all the replies though. I love gathering info about my guns.

The slop in the bolt when it is retracted is totally normal for most mausers. They were military rifles and the little bit of extra clearance that causes the slop also keeps the from binding up in the heat of action. The wear in the bolt is mostly just cosmetic from what I can see. In the words of Miracle Max, "I've seen worse." I think I own worse.

I'd still recommend getting a replacement cocking piece and sear, just to be safe even if you don't actually replace them right now. Spares are never a bad thing. That would only be about $20 total, including shipping from numrich. Problems like you were seeing don't tend to fix themselves and chasing intermittent problems is no fun especially when it pops up at the exact wrong time.

But... Since it is working (assuming you checked that it doesn't go off when the safety is switched off), go and shoot it. What is it chambered in?

By the way...

Originally Posted by morcey2
You've got what looks like a Model 93 bolt.

what's the significance of this?

No significance, just an observation.

Matt

 

[sixshooter]

I did do the safety checks you suggested above, Matt.

What is it chambered in?

well, the guy who gave it to me included a number of loaded "clips" or whatever they're called. I *think* he said it's 30-06, but I'll have to check the ammo.

My question about the significance of the "Model 93" thing is more of a "what does this mean?" question. Does that indicate a production year, or just a variant? I'm totally ignorant about that.

 

[rcmodel]

It is the Model = 1893 = Model 93.

One of a long line of Mauser bolt actions, culminating in the famous Model 98.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser#Mauser_firearms_pre-1945

rc

 

[morcey2]

I did do the safety checks you suggested above, Matt.

well, the guy who gave it to me included a number of loaded "clips" or whatever they're called. I *think* he said it's 30-06, but I'll have to check the ammo.

My question about the significance of the "Model 93" thing is more of a "what does this mean?" question. Does that indicate a production year, or just a variant? I'm totally ignorant about that.

The Model 93 is a small-ring mauser model that was used mostly by Spain. It was also the first Mauser with the staggered box magazine that was flush with the bottom of the stock. (Turkey hand an 1893 mauser that was very similar) It was chambered in 7x57 (7mm Mauser) and isn't as strong as the later M98-derived actions. I would be surprised if it was chambered in 30-06 since some significant modification would have to be done to the receiver and magazine to get it to function. Not that it hasn't been done, but it's not recommended. If you can post some pictures of the loaded clips that would help.

Some full pics of the rifle would help also. If it's chambered in 7x57, 6.5x55 swede, 250 or 300 savage, 257 Roberts, or a few other relatively low-pressure cartridges it will be perfectly safe to shoot. If it's in 308/7.62x51 which was a common conversion by the Spanish, I'd be careful with it. I've seen several that were converted to 6mm Remington, which is basically 6x57 Mauser, but I wouldn't touch those with a 10-foot pole and ballistic shielding. The saami max pressure on 6mm Rem is 65,000 PSI, well above the 51,000 PSI (45,000 CUP) that the 7x57 is rated at.

Matt

 

[sixshooter]

I'll be sure to take a closer look at it tonight. Thanks for all the great info!

 

[tark]

My mistake, MORCY2, you are correct. I was thinking of my Jap Arisaka, which, from a military point of view, is superior to any Mauser: stronger, simpler, easier to manufacture and totally reliable. The sear surface is on the Arisaka firing pin, where the Japanese eliminated many unnecessary parts at the rear of the bolt. The entire Arisaka bolt consists of only six parts, bolt body, extractor, extractor collar, firing pin, FP spring and safety knob.

But I wandered off topic. Sorry.

Filing or grinding the sear surface on a Mauser boltwill result in the condition I described. And they aren't all that hard, I have a 98 Mauser bolt in my hand that a file will easily cut into the sear surface on.

 

[epoletna]

One thing that modification to .30-06 would mean with the M93 is that the feed ramp is probably ground down to allow feeding of the longer round. If the feed ramp is ground at all you potentially have a weakened lug engagement, which is a dangerous situation. If it is one of the shorter cartridges mentioned above, you should have no problem. If it is a longer cartridge like the .30-06 you probably need to have a good gunsmith look at it.

 

[sixshooter]

I doubt it's been modified. The guy who gave it to me is a "run what you brung" kind of guy. He's not into modifying things to that degree, nor operating anything that has been modified that much either - especially firearms.

What's going on is what is typical for me - one piece of information has slipped into place of another piece of similar information. In this case it's rifle calibers.

 

[morcey2]

If it's still original (and not one that had been converted to 7.62x51), it will be 7x57. It's one of my favorite cartridges. I've got 2 right now and I'm building another one. It's a good, balanced cartridge. It's powerful enough for what I need, but recoil isn't bad. I wouldn't use it for elk since I have other guns that are better for that, but if it was all I had I wouldn't feel undergunned within its limitations ( less than 250 yards and quality bullets). I know others won't agree, but a 140 gr Nosler partition, it has as much energy at 250 yards as a 30-06 w/ a 165 gr Nosler partition has at 400. I wouldn't hesitate with with the 30-06 at 400 yards...

If it's the 308/7.62x51, shoot it with care.

Matt

 

[sixshooter]

Ok, here's some more pics:











Then there's the "what's it chambered in" question. All I can say is: it's not 30-06. The guy who gave it to me gave me a bunch of random stuff, and it was supposed to include an M1 Garand, but he couldn't find it (probably taken/hidden by a family member - strange situation which necessitated giving me everything he could find). At any rate, among that "pile" was an ammo belt full of these, which are for the M1, and are 30-06:

Now, I took one round out and dropped it into the Mauser. It fell into the receiver nicely, but the bolt wouldn't close. So the diameter is right, but the shape/length of the round is wrong. So that means two things: 1) I have ammo for gun that I don't have, and a gun that I don't have ammo for, and 2) I still don't know exactly what it actually is chambered in.

EDIT: After some research I think I've determined that it is, in fact, a .308 conversion. I've posted a new thread about it.