IDF won’t buy IMI Tavor rifle for lack of budget

[Drizzt]

IDF won’t buy IMI Tavor rifle for lack of budget

Israel Military Industries: Statements that the Tavor is the best rifle in the world cannot be deposited at the bank.

Dror Marom 4 Feb 03 16:39

The IDF is not equipping its combat units with Israel Military Industries’ (IMI) Tavor assault rifle at this time. The reason is a shortage in the defense establishment’s shekel budget. The shortage puts in doubt the IDF’s plan to equip its combat troops with the assault rifle developed by IMI’s small arms division. Only a few rifles have been purchased to date for use in pilot operations to test its combat suitability.
There is concern that the defense establishment’s shekel budget shortage will force the IDF to buy rifles from the US, using US military aid. IMI stated today, “Statements that the Tavor is the best rifle in the world cannot be deposited at the bank. We still expect to receive a full operational purchase order for the rifle, which is essential to improve our global marketing efforts.â€

Minister of Defense Shaul Mofaz praised the Tavor yesterday during a visit to the company.

In order to improve the chances that the IDF will purchase the Tavor, IMI is negotiating with several US companies to jointly manufacture the rifle. If US companies make the entire Tavor, or at least 50% of its components, it would be declared “Made in USA†and US aid could be used to procure it. IMI’s Integrated Security Systems unit currently manufactures the Tavor. The main parts are produced at IMI’s Kiryat Shmona plant and assembled at IMI’s center in Ramat Hasharon.

The Tavor is designed as a soldier’s personal weapon. It comes in five versions: basic assault rifle; a commander’s personal weapon; a sharp-shooting configuration as a squad weapon; a short version for commando, airborne, paratroopers, special rescue units, and tank crews; and Micro Tavor specially configured for security forces and special missions. The Tavor uses standard NATO 5.56mm ammunition. The special forces version weighs 2.4 kg, and can be equipped with special laser and night vision sights. It is built of advanced rust-resistant materials, and can fire up to 750-900 rounds a minute. The Tavor is designed to NATO standards.


http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=660268&fid=942

 

[El Tejon]

What? Israel building a CDI rifle and not issuing to its own troops? You mean yet another Iwannacoolgun gun being used to fish for foreign gold while they use U.S. taxpayer dollars to buy M16s?

Do the hustle! [music playing]

 

[Sir Galahad]

SHHHHH!!!! If they build it here with U.S. parts, we'll be able to buy it here because they're sure to market a civilian version like the AR postbans.

Personally, I have no problem with my tax dollars going to help Israel because they are good, decent, pro-American people. It's my tax dollars going to Third World sh*tholes that hate America that I detest.

 

[Stephen Ewing]

Heck, I'm still trying to reconcile "best rifle in the world" and "5.56mm." Those are mutually exclusive, last I looked.

Steve

 

[Tamara]

Stephen Ewing,

If you desire any rifle other than a 5.56 M-16 clone, you are obviously suffering from Iwannacoolgunvirus. Just ask El Tejon.

 

[BigG]

Not enough shekels. *sniff* I know the feeling! Why do we give them US military aid (greenbacks) if they can build their own stuff and export it??? Oh, sorry. That's not politically correct.

What in heck is a Tavor, anyway? Sounds more like some kinda suppository or sompin.

 

[Airwolf]

The Tavor:

http://www.imi-israel.com/imi/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/1.1.2.12.2.5.html

 

[Schuey2002]

I wonder if this is going to affect Barrett's decision on whether or not to import this rifle..

 

[BigG]

Coolness Factor

Cute. Pardon me for my iggerance but I miss the utility of these bullpup designs where the mag sticks down out of the stock. The AUG comes to mind. While they look like a cute lil burp gun for firing from the hip, it seems like the low hanging magazine makes no sense from an ergonomic standpoint. The short overall length looks like it would be great for clearing houses but also give a great opportunity to put one into yourself or your compadre.

 

[Steve Smith]

Actually, I don't think it would be good for clearing houses. Imagine going around a right corner. You'd want to have the rifle on your left side so you could protect your body somewhat. Unfortunately, the cases are going right at your face.

 

[BigG]

I'm thinkin more about puttin a ROUND thru your own leg or arm.

 

[El Tejon]

Tamara, awww, come one. If this uberkool sow's ear was so great, wouldn't Zahal be clamouring for it, instead of selling e.u. certs to the General [clicking noises] of Bedsheetistan for gold and then put their hands in my pocket to buy 16s?

 

[Steve Smith]

Well of course that is a problem, BigG! It is all a problem. The possiblility of friendly fire is certainly much lower than that of being hit with your own cases. (of course the ramifications are worse!) THAT is the point I was getting at.

 

[Tamara]

El Tejon,

Tamara, awww, come one. If this uberkool sow's ear was so great, wouldn't Zahal be clamouring for it, instead of selling e.u. certs to the General [clicking noises] of Bedsheetistan for gold and then put their hands in my pocket to buy 16s?

Clever.

Witty.

Droll.

Also completely ignores the fact that X percentage of MAP bux must be spent with US defense contractors.

Were that not so, maybe more countries would get "Iwannacoolgunvirus". (You know, the lack of which disease that kept your great grandaddy from saying "Aw, what the heck do you need anything other than a Brown Bess for? You kids who want rifled barrels just have Iwannacoolgunvirus"...)


M-16's, fine rifles that they are, are made much more attractive by price supports from your pocket and mine.

You think all those countries adopted ARs and AKs because they were the best things to come down the pike or because they were nearly free?

 

[Stephen Ewing]

Tamara, it's interesting you should be the one to diagnose me with Iwannacoolgunvirus, as you gave me a VERY nasty strain of the virus. I dare you: Ask me about the 10mm Birdshead Vaquero with no paragraph on the barrel.

Who's responsible for that one, hmmmmm?

Seriously, I may be reading too much Cooper, or maybe my tinfoil is wrapped a little tight, but I still dislike using varmint bullets on 200lb mammals.

Steve

 

[BigG]

Here's my question:

Where is the value added? Change just for its own sake ain't necessarily good. What is it about the Tovar or Tokar or whatever it's called that is better in some way than what is out there in the field?

From what I've seen of the AUG and the FAMAS, I would not trade my Colt AR15 for one unless I could get another one. I mean the two bullpups would go for a dang fancy price around these parts! I would assume the Israeli offering would not beat either of the existing bullpups, or?

I eagerly await your responses!

 

[El Tejon]

Tamara, you're saying this thing is a "step forward"? I shudder to think where we are going.

BTDT, on fed foreign aid $. There are always ways around "federal restrictions" on foreign aid whether it is my money spent on militree contracts from gun valley to Purdue Discovery Park.

If Zahal wanted this thing, after certain law firms got through with their grad skul buddies in D.C., they would have it. However, if you look at certain members of the Chen, makes no sense NOT to have a CDI weapon. Maybe march around with these, but fight with 16s?

 

[Mannlicher]

http://www.imi-israel.com/imi/doa_iis.dll/Serve/item/English/1.1.2.12.2.5.html


I never saw much utility in Bull Pup designs. Seems like a lot of countries are going that way, but I prefer the AR type better.

 

[Tamara]

El T,

"There were no blacksmiths in Israel because the Philistines were determined to keep the Hebrews from making swords and spears." 1 Samuel 13:19-22

Perhaps to be looking at your sigline and wondering where the Philistines are living today? In Jerusalem? Inside the Beltway?

How do you know if the Tavor is a step forward or not? Taken one to skul yet?

You sound just like Col. Cooper, only one US charmed forces rifle design ahead...

 

[El Tejon]

Well, ex-girlfriends have called me Philistine before. You take cell phone calls during one little German opera (made my month that night) and they won't return your calls again. Geez, women.

Anywho, you're right, of course. I've never handled one. None of my guys have them. It's all Errornet, curbside speculation, until I shoot one and rave about it (I'm soooo easy). However, my opinion does not matter, I just pay the freight.

 

[Chris Pinkleton]

Anyone else think these things look like an AUG hit with the ugly stick?

 

[Correia]

I got to play with the 2 Barrett Tavor prototypes. I was actually very impressed with them. The design is pretty straight forward, and they felt good, though the balance was of course rear heavy. The Barret versions had a normal trigger guard instead of the FA MAS style open guard. Trigger pull was decent. Stripping was a piece of cake. Back up iron sights were cheesy, but the rifle was made to be used with something like an ACOG.

As for not shooting yourself with one I don't see any more problem with this gun than with any other stubby gun like an M4 or even a handgun. Don't cover yourself or your friends with the muzzle. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Why are so many countries going to a Bullpups? 2 reasons, mechanized warefare and CQB. Both are good places to have short guns. One of the reasons that our armed forces are buying so many M4 carbines. However .223 out of a 14 inch barrel sucks, whereas with a bullpup you get a 20 inch barrel in the same size package. Lots more velocity that way.

There is the trade off of the ejection port by your face, making shooting from your left shoulder very hard (notice I did not say impossible, there is a way to shoot left handed for close range shooting around corners but it is not very traditional, anybody ever see the Bushmaster Arm pistol? Ain't pretty but it works) Also a lot of of folks worry about if the gun blows up (case seperation, etc.) with your cheek resting on the action. IIRC the Tavor utilizes a ceramic shield molded into the plastic around the receiver so the explosion won't injure the shooter.

I think bullpups get a bad rap mostly because of the abysmal performance of the SA80 and the Australian version of the Aug. Neither of which has anything to do with the fact that they are bullpups, but rather they are sucky guns.

The bullpup is just a compromise weapon, short, not as elegant, but still plenty of velocity.

I'm a little biased in favor of bullpups myself. Ya'll will see why shortly.