IDPA Rule Changes - Suggestions

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sure am sorry to see promising new shooters like VaughnT start the rulebashing their first time out. But they have plenty of company.
Rulebashing? I don't think the rules for IDPA were written on tablets and handed to Moses on the mountaintop. Therefore, they are fair game for debate, discussion, criticism and good 'ol fashioned bitching and moaning. Nobody said they didn't have fun at IDPA matches. We're just thinking about the things that rub us the wrong way and if changed may increase:

1. Fun
2. Realism

Which I believe are two worthy goals.

1. I agree, the rulebook is terrible. We are expecting a new edition, but I am not holding my breath. In the meantime, do the best you can with what is there, and hope for a SO who knows his business. You can complain if you don't agree, but don't keep whining if you can't talk him around. That is known as sportsmanship.
I must have missed where people said that they endlessly whine to the SO about the rules... I am an SO now, and I can tell you that it matters not what rule I personally agree with, I will not tolerate whining and I don't remember seeing anyone advocate such behavior here...
2. Changes in the rules mentioned here like abolishing the dreaded Tactical Reload aren't likely to happen. Bill likes things the way they are.
And that is a problem all it's own, isn't it. What a ridiculous standard for IDPA to have: "Because Bill said so." Talk about alienating.
3. If your pet changes were made, would they make so much difference that you would WIN?
I must have also missed the part where people were suggesting rules so they could start winning. Give folks a little credit.
4. If all the suggestions I see here and elsewhere were made - not including the ones that contradict each other, of course - you would mostly have IPSC. So why are you cluttering up IDPA?
Plenty of suggestions in this thread are geared towards increasing the differences between IDPA and IPSC. You must have missed those.

- Gabe
 
Yeah, so IDPA is really the Bill Wilson Club of Combat Shooting, eh?

*Yes, we are playing in his yard. I know of no plans to democratize IDPA.
_______
Because we prefer to avoid those impractical holsters and the long comped guns and the optical sights and the stages that have you clearing out an enemy barracks

*Well, that's why IPSC put in Limited, then Limited 10, Production, and Revolver. Ever hear of those? Too many folks haven't, they sure don't show up in the magazine articles, not as photogenic. If they had started sooner, there might not BE an IDPA. But L-10 and Production are still the fastest growing Divisions in IDPA. And another frequent complaint of IDPA is low round count. People must WANT to clear the barracks.


The holster nonsense makes me think maybe no friction holster should ever be allowed (belt slides!!!) and snapped retention snaps should be mandatory---but some of those belt slides are still better than the snapouts they use in IPSC.

*I don't use straps or snaps anywhere, range, home, or street. I haven't dropped a gun yet. IPSC Standard, Modified, and Production have rules as to holster placement. USPSA does not. I have always wondered why American shooters can't go by the same rules as the rest of the world in this and several other areas. Why ARE there all those italics for US-only requirements in the rule book?

Until we can find a way to stop the clock while we are hiding behind concealment/cover and assessing our options, there will not be a way to factor in speed of shooting (necessary) without tempting gamers to trash tactics (getchakillt!). Maybe someday with advanced sensors, IR beams and other ways to sense when the shooter actually begins to slice the pie...maybe.

*The Polite Society is working on this. You are limited to a generous three second exposure from cover at any one time and location. But you can take a (brief) lull under cover, reload, regroup, remember where the remaining threat targets are, and shift to get at them. A custom shot timer that would remember multiple starts and times would be a big help, present units put a heavy load on SO and scorekeeper.

One thing about IDPA--KEEP the rule on failure to do right if you stand there blasting away at multiple threats without fighting your way to cover/concealment.

*I don't think I have EVER seen a FTDR for any reason, even when deserved. SOs are maybe chicken.
 
Please don't think that I'm "rulebashing" right out of the gate, folks. As a new shooter, I came to this sport trained somewhat in the tactics necessary to get you through a fight. I was trained to fire to slidelock and not count your shots. I was trained to drop an empty mag and forget about it. If a magazine was partially loaded, but had to be ejected, I was trained to hold it in the weak hand....stowing it away only if there was a lull in the action.

When I was told to stow a mag in my pocket in the middle of firing, it very nearly knocked me for a loop and I still can't find a logical reason for it. Every time I read about a "Reload with Retention" in a gunrag, the guy is holding it in his weak hand and continueing to fire. I never assumed the IDPA would do differently? Especially when 'defensive' is part of the name.

From my perspective, one I think is still unbiased, I can see a lot of weird things in the rulebook. For example, why do I have to use the thumbreak on my duty rig when nobody is being penalized for failure to use cover or slice the pie? SC is a right to carry state and covering garments should be mandatory on at least one stage per match just so you can get better at drawing as you carry. Not requiring an overshirt because "it's sooo hot" is just another way of gaming because these people are using open-topped rigs that give them the fastest draw possible short of a dropgun race outfit. You're slowing me down by forcing the thumbsnap issue, but you're not slowing them down by forcing the clothing issue. Patently unfair.

Again, though, I don't mind as this is how I carry and this is how I want to get good. If you want to cheat yourself with a false sense of ability, that's your choice.

On the issue of the rulebook itself, my problem is simply with the writing. Having written in a semi-professional capacity in the past, and studied the written word for personal enjoyment, it really burns me up to see bad grammar in an official document. My company's rulebook is full of run-on sentences, grammatical and typographical errors and redundancies that leave you literally shaking your head. It's more of a pet peave than anything else.

And if Bill Wilson is so proud of himself, I would remind him of that atrocity of a book he published on the 1911. He should be abjectly ashamed and seek to offer penance however he may. I can honestly say that I have never seen such poor craftsmanship from a man that claims excellent craftsmanship in another field. Stick with what you know.

But, after all is said and done, I'm having a lot of fun going to these matches. I hope to make the meet in Columbia on the 17th and am looking to take a Suarez class in Atlanta this October. If you've got to spend money on something, this is as good as anything else I've tried.
 
Once more into the breach

I was trained to fire to slidelock and not count your shots.

*IDPA standard.

I was trained to drop an empty mag and forget about it.

*IDPA standard, IF the chamber is empty, see your previous point.

If a magazine was partially loaded, but had to be ejected, I was trained to hold it in the weak hand....stowing it away only if there was a lull in the action.

*Ah-HA. The IDPA concept of the tactical reload and retaining a partial magazine is that it is FOR the lull in the action and no other time.

When I was told to stow a mag in my pocket in the middle of firing, it very nearly knocked me for a loop and I still can't find a logical reason for it.

*The only excuse I can think of for a tactical reload on the clock "in the middle of firing" is to apply stress. It isn't a combat tactic, it is a skill test under pressure. Learn to do the sleight of hand and move on.

Every time I read about a "Reload with Retention" in a gunrag, the guy is holding it in his weak hand and continueing to fire. I never assumed the IDPA would do differently? Especially when 'defensive' is part of the name.

*The gunrags don't write our rules. Some of the writers might be qualified to recommend technique, but a lot of them are not.

*Further, I think retaining that magazine and a few rounds is more a military than a civilian issue. In combat you might be a long way from spare magazines and ammo, and shouldn't throw away bullets or drop mags in the mud. Early Glock magazines not dropping free was not an accident or an error. But if one of US has to defend himself against a crook, it is not likely to be a sustained firefight like the movies and he is going home in a squad car and his gun and ammo go to the evidence clerk, so the need is a lot less. But I still do it when called on, and say nothing about it.

From my perspective, one I think is still unbiased, I can see a lot of weird things in the rulebook. For example, why do I have to use the thumbreak on my duty rig when nobody is being penalized for failure to use cover or slice the pie?

*That is just plain WRONG, and you are within your rights to criticize it and feel screwed over. A call of "Cover" not followed by an immediate move behind cover, and failure to engage in Tactical Priority (LGB code for coptalk "slice the pie") are both Procedural Errors and should be penalized.

SC is a right to carry state and covering garments should be mandatory on at least one stage per match just so you can get better at drawing as you carry. Not requiring an overshirt because "it's sooo hot" is just another way of gaming because these people are using open-topped rigs that give them the fastest draw possible short of a dropgun race outfit. You're slowing me down by forcing the thumbsnap issue, but you're not slowing them down by forcing the clothing issue. Patently unfair.

*Correct again. I don't do that stuff and I don't let it go on my range. On the other hand, the only LEO who regularly shoots with us practices HARD and can get a gun out of a Level III faster than anybody I have seen and about as fast as an old fart like me can pull it from a concealment rig.

Again, though, I don't mind as this is how I carry and this is how I want to get good. If you want to cheat yourself with a false sense of ability, that's your choice.

*Not everybody is practicing their gunslinging at a match. Many are just hobbyists who see no connection between any form of competition and self defense. Others don't look like much, but anybody who can pull a gun out of a holster and fire it in the general direction of a threat is way ahead of the pack.

On the issue of the rulebook itself, my problem is simply with the writing. Having written in a semi-professional capacity in the past, and studied the written word for personal enjoyment, it really burns me up to see bad grammar in an official document. My company's rulebook is full of run-on sentences, grammatical and typographical errors and redundancies that leave you literally shaking your head. It's more of a pet peave than anything else.

*Agreed. And it need not be that way. About two or three years ago there was a technical manual writer who offered to rewrite the rulebook free gratis for nothing, just to scratch his itch. I don't think HQ even bothered to reply.

But, after all is said and done, I'm having a lot of fun going to these matches.

*There is one sure way to improvement of the conduct of IDPA short of rewriting the rules to try to suit everybody.... put in a year to learn the ropes and then offer to write, set up, and run a stage at your club's match.

*I gotta quit these debates. I am getting too depressed to write the match for Saturday.

*I'm done.
 
So does every standardized test i have ever taken.
You got a plaque for placing first on a stadardized test? Boy did I go to the wrong school.

I sure am sorry to see promising new shooters like VaughnT start the rulebashing
So when we complain about CCW laws or gun control laws we are lawbashing?

Yeah, so IDPA is really the Bill Wilson Club of Combat Shooting, eh?
Spot on.

I don't think anyone is suggesting turning IDPA into IPSC, just changing some of the rules IPSC has right. As it stands now some of the rules are just in there because Bill Wilson is mad at IPSC. "No IPSC-style speed reloads" -- even if they are faster.
Besides IDPA brought a lot of the critisism on themselves. When you go around justifing your rules with lines like "in the real world" and such people are going to jump you when you don't follow your own logic.
Most people shoot and enjoy. They just see things that they think can be made better, I thought that was what made America great, the constant search for a better mouse trap.
 
I have only shot a few IDPA matches (8 or 9), and a few IPCS matches (maybe 15). I shoot both with my carry weapon (Glock 23),shoot both with factory ammo and use my carry holster at the 4:00 postion.

So for me, it's practice/training (don't want to get into the middle of that debate) with my CCW. I understand the reasons given for tac reloads and some of the other rules (don't agree with all of them, but I at least have been told why they were put in place).

But why the the "Tactical Sequence" rule? Can anyone explain the reason this rule exists ??

And why the penalty for reloading while not behind cover ?? (I'm OK with requiring the shooter to continue moving toward cover, but the rule as applied here (Texas/Louisiana) forces the shooter to count rounds to avoid procedural for reloading in the open).
 
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