IDSA in the works check it out

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Apparently they are moving a little faster than you planned....you have already exceeded your download limit.

How about a brief synopsis? from the titles it sounds interesting.
 
Gleaned info

For some reason when I took this off of Yahoo the format got all goofed up. It sounds like these guys are just getting started so please don't blame them if their rough draft is kind of rough. They will have their own website up and running in the next 48 hours. I will post a link when it is available.

The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the governing body that
officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting situations.

IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self defense shooting skills
in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level of safety for its
participants.

IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by
individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban Rifles, Sub-machine guns
and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will have their own
separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold voluntary "side
matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match" only.

A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures to develope New
and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in every day life. IDSA
varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is commited to following a
very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA was founded.

Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by experienced folks. There are
NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our reasoning for each one.
We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if it doesn't we have a
problem.

Equipment Category:
Holsters
All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass these tests.
1. Must be secure.
2. Must be safe.
3. Must be concealed.

Simple huh? Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable. Agreed, some are better
than others.

And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.
3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen when you raise your
arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your equipment or just Zip up
your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages that way in the
match.
You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to "conceal it".
2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be covered. And a visual
inspection can determine that.
1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind most professional
people feel that a gun should NOT "jump" out of your holster. Since we all can set up from
a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward until you "catch
yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed down) and then go
down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have "fairly" and safely
tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very mindful here as not to
stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is nevertheless important to help
shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe shooting
environment.

Holster Location:
Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3 Holster rules"
* Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
1. Cross draw holsters
2. Fanny packs
** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great carry type
holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety factor
simply prohibits them.

Scoring System:
Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.
Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.

To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total of 8 points. Anything
less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3 scoring rings (And until all the
clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring target can be
substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
The center ring is worth 5 points
The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.

And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.

To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or at least heard that "shot
placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat. So, in keeping with this
belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self defense, "Do we want less
BIG bullets or More smaller ones?" And to put it another way, "had you
rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade off. And it is a REAL
factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying " I don't want to be
penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit the center.
Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes when choosing their
self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick just as
hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense gun. We will be getting a
factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power factor"
And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.

These "power factors" will be established asap.

Gun Classifications.
This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it simple AND have fewer
than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what we have it
down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
* One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what gun you shoot, he
does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the most people to be able
to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out gunned" And lastly if the
shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the time to choose another
gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?

We are holding our breath.

3 categories only:

1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
2. Non-Single Action Autos
3. Revolvers

Guys, please give this some thought.
Our thoughts were these:
1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a small but distinct
advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra" maintenance issues.
2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun does.
3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than that is YOUR
choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for what you are tying to
do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up and get it?

And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications. Yes, a very touchy
subject for many....

And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true fact that gave us
some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several years ago. And when Jerry
won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called gamers also. But today
our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to kill the bad guys thus
saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for Gamer Jerry, more US
soldiers would be dieing.
So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting organizations. We feel that
equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no matter if it is plastic,
leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works and serves our purpose it
is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.

IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as you can see we want to
put as few restrictions possible in this section.
We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in IDSA but we want
manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and equipment better, faster,
sager, and more user friendly.

READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to respond to what we have
already said.

Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.

IDSA Staff
 
Sounds very interesting.

I've just recently started shooting IPSC. Looked at IDPA and just didn't like the way it sounded, seemed a little too restrictive.

I shoot in limited because I have a P-16 with full-cap mags.

Please don't flame me, but the open gun stuff just don't float my boat. IMO, there's nothing "Practical" about race guns/holsters/mag holders. I guess it's like skiers vs. snowborders. I'm not saying race guns/gear should be banned, I'm just never gonna go that route. I do agree that dot sights on rifles/shotguns are OK...anybody could practically use those in defensive shooting.

I would like to see the IDSA run their shoots on a surprise basis...after all, in defensive shooting there's rarely a "walk thru". Making decisions while shooting is part of the process.

If IDSA takes off, I'll be there!
 
It sure would. It's not much faster than any old kydex holster anyway, and most of that comes from how low and offset it sits. Raising it up and bringing it in close would defeat the whole purpose.

But I like that it would be allowed, that says "hey, whatever works for you," which seems like the right attitude.
 
Another concealed carry club. [yawn] :scrutiny: If it successfully splits the difference between the IPSC impracticality while exploring new technologies excesses on the one hand, and the range/equpment/HOLSTER Nazis of IDPA, we may and should have a new game in town which will eclipse IDPA in 3 years.

So, where's IHMSA or whatever these days? It was estupido for the NRA to invent its own handgun metallic silhouette game instead of adopting them, but I quit keeping track years ago when Gates or whoever in Idaho pissed off HIS clientel. I don't see the action handgun games petering out, but there really isn't room for three, either. NRA Action Pistol isn't even on the map AFAIC--nice try but no cigar.
 
Some quick thoughts:

Three categories will shift the game more toward gamers. Why shoot a single stack 1911 when you can shoot a double stack and load her up to the gills? Especially if you can use a .38 Super/9x21/9x23 to make Major and pack the mag even more. The guy with a seven-shot .45 has no chance.

Make sure there are NO references to either IPSC or IDPA. We all ridiculed IDPA for their rulebook because of the blatant finger pointing.

IDSA huh? At least it's easier to say "idsa" than "idpa"...almost as easy as "ipsick."
 
Man, I'm gonna make my own club. You can shoot whatever you want, and best of all, EVERYONE gets a trophy at the end of the night!
 
Here's the fundamental problem with designing equipment rules.

The game itself is a test of shooting, but carry is about a lot more than shooting. When you choose a carry gun, rig, and ammo, you're balancing shootability, concealability, comfort, effectiveness, and other factors. When you choose a competition gun, you're simply maximizing shootability within the ruleset.

The goal of restrictive equipment rules like IDPA's is to force competitors to choose guns more like they would carry by artificially weighting those other factors, but it doesn't work. A competitor seeking every available advantage will pay the necessary lip service as required by the rules, but otherwise use the "gamiest" setup possible.

There will always be a "hot setup." Any set of rules will produce some kind of optimum. There's no set of aesthetically "fair" rules you can come up with that will lead some competitors to shoot a Kahr K40 from an IWB against another guy with a full-cap G17 in a straight-drop kydex OWB. There are certainly conceivable sets of unfair rules that could do it, such as giving extra points for "tactical correctness," but this will just generate some other optimum choice of equipment. That's not what you want, you want competitors to select their own optimum, taking into account all relevant factors. As long as the scope of the competition includes only shooting, that is impossible. And of course, it's not really feasible to expand the scope of the competition further than that, since you can't score people objectively on how concealable, comfortable, and effective their choices are (if you could do that, we wouldn't have so many 9 vs. 45 threads!).

IPSC solves this problem by throwing up its hands and saying "go for it!" The competition is only about shooting, so we choose the most shootable guns, which unsurprisingly are not very concealable or comfortable, and are only as effective as required by the rules (ie: power factor). Obviously some people don't like that, which is one of the reasons why we ended up with IDPA in the first place. But if you want to differentiate from IPSC, you have to find an alternative solution to this fundamental problem. IDPA failed, and will continue to fail, because they deny the nature of the problem. To succeed, any new project must first acknowledge it.
 
sounds good to me.

Seems like too many people are worried about what the other guy is doing.

IDSA seems like an organization where a guy can test his skills AND his choices against himself. Who cares about the guy in the vest like a housedress and a safariland speed holster? Not me.
You do what you want, and I'll do what I want.
Bothering to look at where you stack up against this guy or that guy or who isn't following the spirit of the rules just seems like a waste of time when you can be paying attention to your own skillset and the performance of your own choices in a realistic environment.

Where do I sign up?
 
Monster - Although I don't personally like IPSC shooting (mostly because the guns look like Buck Rogers contraptions) I thought I'd let you know that I thought your analysis was spot on and well written. Thanks for the excellent contribution.
 
Monster that was very insightful I agree with you 97%. The only point I disagree with is that you make it sound like Limited and Open guns are the only guns used in IPSC matches. Here in WI, and MN many of the matches will have about a third of the shooters shooting Production. Production is taking off in a big way around here. Thanks in part to IDPA and all of their stupid rules.
 
If there was a rule that you could only shoot factory ammo splitting everything by caliber would work fairly well. The problem with just doing it by caliber is that you would have people reloading their .45 down to .38 special power factors which would give them a pretty decent advantage because of the nonexsistant recoil.
 
I have been following the yahoo list.
They have some good ideas but can see three problems.
Power factoring, no mag capacity limit, and concealment = USPSA Limited under a vest. And it won't take a tent. The carry gun guys will have to be very devoted to improving themselves because they won't be winning.
There is getting to be some confusion as to whether they are doing shooting matches or little local gunfighting academys
A lot of their correspondents think they can get every little idea and convenience they want included.
Len is going to have to take a firm hand on some of that stuff.
 
I would suggest a name change, from "IDSA" to something a little bit further away from the trademarked IDPA. You can't very well sell a little muscle car called "FROD Pony" without the lawyers jumping in. Unless you sell it as a satire, anyway.


How about Defensive Shooting League or somesuch?
 
ruger,
You could set the powerfactor at whatever you wanted. It would be .38 vs .38 or 9mm what ever and .45 vs .45 it may be a few more catagories, but who really cares. I never pay attention to which catagory I am in in a match anyway.
 
Idsa

My main carry is a Kel-Tec p3at in a pocket holster or Uncle Mike's belt pouch. I am not allowed to compete in USPSA or IDPA with this. I would support IDSA because I have always preached the KISS principle. Of course you know that you will have shooters cutting off 2' from the bottom of their bath robes, concealing their LAR Grizzlies and Desert Eagles saying "Yes sir, this is my daily carry". What I need to find out is if I can conceal a revolver in about the 4:30 position and a triple speedloader pouch in the 3:00 position under my vest. I will still get whupped by the full moon clip shooters but so what?
 
Another concealed-carry shooting club, just with less silliness than IDPA (which is/was less silly than IPSC).

...YAWN... I've commented on that elsewhere. Last I read "The Armed Citizen" in the Rifleman, there were scarcely any events where the good guy(s)/gals(s) drew from concealment.

More hammer-men looking for a nail that meets their preconceived plans and expectations. It's a good skill set to include in competitions, but it ain't the only thing.
 
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