If SARs are poo, then what isn't?

[AK103K]

SteyrAUG,

I guess I have a good one then. All the mags I have are either Bulgarian or Hungarian surplus mags. I dont have any USA mags. Some mags fit better in the WASR than they do in the SAR. Some fit good in the SAR but not in the Saiga or Hungarian. It varies. The one thing that doesnt is, they all work, snug or sloppy, and they work in the WASR too. It feeds everything I've put in it, fmj, soft point, hp, reguardless how the mag fits. As I said before, out of the box, the WASR I have was a lot nicer than the SAR's I've seen, and the other WASR's I've seen were to. Maybe they just send the nice ones down this way.

 

[762x51]

AK103K:

You are not alone in thinking so. Many people have said that the fit and finish on the WASR is better than on a comparable SAR. The 2002 model SARs that I examined however had a better fit and finish than any of the other SARs I have seen before. Maybe CAI is actually doing something about their QC?

Edit: SteyrAug: Here is a picture of a 2002 SAR-1 someone was kind enough to post for me.

 

[SteyrAUG]

AK103K, I didn't say they had problems feeding. I said the fitting was crappy. In other words you cannot change a mag as easily or smoothly on a WASR10 conversion as you can on a SAR.

762x51

Can you please show me SOME kind of evidence that this is true?You are the first person to make these comments. Exactly when did the BATF determine that this rifle is no longer importable? If this is the case how do you explain the 2002 series SARs that are out there? Are you suggesting that they are illegal?

You'll have to excuse me. I don't have a link to ATFs "Guns we arbitraily banned" story. The SARs were deemed no longer importable about the same time (and for the same reason) as the FMP receivers.

However, after doing a bit o investigating I found out HOW the new SAR1s and the 2002 Sars are coming in. They are importing SAR receiver blanks and manufacturing them into complete receivers AT Century Arms. Doing this makes them importable and actually constitutes a US receiver.

This would also explain the SAR 2s and 3s, assuming the original supply was ever depleted.

 

[762x51]

Can you disclose your source for this information? This is the first that I and I'm sure many others have heard about this. If this is the case, wouldn't the rifles have to have CAI stamped on the side as the MANUFACTURER not the importer since they are actually importing unfinished receivers? The ones that I saw in person have the same markings on the fire selector side of the receiver as any other SAR.

"MADE BY CN ROMARM SA/CUGIR
IN ROMANIA
IMPORTED BY CAI GEORGIA,VT"

 

[SteyrAUG]

762x51, my source is just being in the business.

Finding out awhile back that SARs were no longer importable.

Then finding out (the hard way) that the "Sars are back!" SARs are really WASR10 conversions.

A little over a year ago ATF (in an effort to curtail 922r guns) banned severl receivers and key parts (such as barrels). SARs and FMP receivers were on the list. Strangely Imbel receivers and FAL barrels were not.

Currently FMP receiver flats are being imported and assembled into complete receivers at Special Weapons to get around the ban on FMP receivers.

The same is being done for the SAR.

The blanks have maunfacturer marks prior to importation but must also have importer marks by the importer.

Regarding the SAR 2002 I'd wager it is possibly a new config receiver that was developed for importation and is currently not banned. It could be imported complete.

However, I remember when the SARs were deemed "unimportable" by ATF. It was post 9-11 when the supply dried up and EVERYONE wanted one. I missed a lot of sales due to unavailability.

For perspective, do you remember when ATF specifically banned the HK SR9? How about the Steyr USR? How about the Springfield SAR 8 (the real Greek one)? These were guns that were created to be compliant with existing laws and were simply added to the list.

 

[762x51]

What exactly are the SW/FMP receivers marked with? I still say that if CAI is actually importing the flats and assembling them into complete receivers that they must be marked as the manufacturer, not the importer. And this is simply not so:

And this ban on importing SARs....you make it sound as if they are banned by name....if this is the case, how can these 2002s be simply "new config receivers to get around the ban" but have the same name?

 

[SteelyDan]

My two cents, based on owning one WASR, shooting a buddy's WASR, shooting a buddy's Bulgarian (SLR-95??), and spending some time researching the issue on AK-47.net, is that the difference between the SAR-1 and the WASR-10 is pretty minimal. Everything else being equal, I'd pick the SAR, just because it is what it was designed to be, while the WASR had to be modified. But on the other hand, from my limited experience I expect you're a little more likely to get straight sights and a better finish with the WASR.

I've put close to 1000 rounds through my WASR. Two rounds stovepiped during very rapid fire. Seven of eight mags fit fine, and once they're inserted there's a little sideways play, but it's not a big deal or a problem. The eighth mag needed about two minutes with a small file to fit properly. Seven of the eight mags feed perfectly, the eighth one (not the same as the other "eight one") doesn't feed at all; I haven't taken the time to figure out why yet. Other than those problems, it's been flawless and I can hit 7" or 8" targets all day long at 100 yards using a cheap lawnchair as a rest and shooting rounds at about 1.5 second intervals.

So, my point is, if you like the SARs I wouldn't sweat getting a WASR. In neither case will you be getting a top AK varient, but in both cases you'll be getting something that's inexpensive, downright cheap to shoot, pretty reliable and very easy to fix if there's a problem, reasonably accurate (for an AK), and most importantly just a whole lot of fun.

 

[Gewehr98]

Ahh, but the Bulgarian milled gun...

SteelyDan, you didn't mention your take on the SLR-95. SHame on you!

(Only because I know the quality level of that particular, and now expensive, AK variant)

 

[Guyon]

TriggerShooter2: That's some nice camo work. How do you go about it?

 

[Aspin]

My 2001 SAR-1 (not WASR-10...) is WONDERFUL all mags fit nice, not hard to insert/remove it shoots great too. Its not Poo, my Father (Nam Vet, M-14 User) Loves it...

 

[SteyrAUG]

What exactly are the SW/FMP receivers marked with? I still say that if CAI is actually importing the flats and assembling them into complete receivers that they must be marked as the manufacturer, not the importer.

I don't know, I have not seen one yet.

And this ban on importing SARs....you make it sound as if they are banned by name....if this is the case, how can these 2002s be simply "new config receivers to get around the ban" but have the same name?

Banned by configuration/designation. Basically the ATF doesn't want anymore high capacity receivers coming in. However uncompleted receivers are exempt. They are completed into finished receivers in the US and therefore just as legal as converting a Wasr10 under 922(r).

Again, I have yet to see one of the NEW SARs so I cannot say exactly what the markings are. My SAR is a 2001 and therefore a original one. And the most recent SAR I ordered was still a WASR10 conversion.

IF I order a SAR in the future and it turns out to be something NEW I will bring you up to speed.

 

[Redlg155]

I've also got a 2002 stamped SAR1.

Same markings as stated by 7.62x51 on my rifle. And it is indeed a SAR1.

Good Shooting
RED

 

[SteelyDan]

Gewehr98, you're right, I meant to mention the SLR-95 but got distracted. The look, the fit and finish, and the feel of the Bulgarian are just head and shoulders above its Romanian counterpart. I only shot one 30-round mag through it, but it's definitely a class act. I can't say I noticed any more accuracy than the WASR, but I wasn't trying for accuracy. I will say that even though I really like the WASR, one of these days I will spend twice the money to get the Bulgarian. It's impressive. Still, when all is said and done, they both do pretty much the same thing in the field, which is why I think the Romanians are such a good value.

 

[Wildalaska]

I will say that every SAR I have ever shot (even the ones that looked like poop) digested everything without a burp. Even the ones done Class III just ran and ran and ran...

The Rumanian AKs of whatever origin, are the ony things worthwhile from Century...

WildbutdonotbuythemsightunseenAlaska

 

[Carlos]

I've shot over 10,000 rounds through an SAR-1 before I sold it to a buddy (2001 model). It never had but one or two ammo feeding problems. It still functions perfectly, and is not a WASR.

SAR's are NOT worth the money or effort needed to turn them into decent guns

That is pure nonsense. I bought a 2002 model a couple of weeks ago, and I don't need to turn it into anything. Out of the box, it shot a little low. The site tool took care of that, and it's shooting clays at 80 yards, no problem (What's your definition of decent gun? What, you looking for a Weatherbee finish??). LOL.

The finish is the best I've seen on the SAR-1's and I don't have to do a refinish job, as I had anticipated. The fit is much tighter than the 2001 and earlier models.

Sure, they're not SLR's or VEPRs, but they're damned good, or "decent" guns, if you look for the obvious shortcomings we've all heard about.

Not worth the money, my ***.

 

[Tropical Z]

My SAR2 set new standards for crappy fit and finish.I have NEVER seen a new gun come in looking worse than my SAR2 did! I guess its OK if YOU dont mind your front sight being canted to the left A QUARTER OF AN INCH!!!-but i'll pass on SAR's.I'm getting a VEPR in the next couple of months.SAR's arent worth the money OR effort to turn them into decent guns!

 

[yzguy]

762x51, what he was alluding to was there are NO MORE SARs. All of the guns currently imported and sold as SARs are in fact Wasr10 or Maadi10 conversions. SARs are no longer importable by law

I'm sorry but that is false. I have a 2002 SAR-1 that I purchased new in December. It is NOT marked "WASR10" nor is it milled out to accept hi caps. It also has the mag dimple that the WASR10's lack. You were given the wrong rifle, but the real ones do exist.

as far as my reason for getting an SAR-1 was that no matter what I got, I would have probably put in the RSA adjustable trigger group and a new Choate stock set. So it did not matter to me that the wood did not match and the fire control group may have been crapy, they were not staying in anyway. I love mine, and am thinking about getting it powder coated.

 

[SteyrAUG]

I'm sorry but that is false. I have a 2002 SAR-1 that I purchased new in December.

yzguy, please read the entire post.

1. It is NOT false. For a while (the time of the link) SARs were no linger being imported.

2. The current SARs (like yours) are once again marked SAR (not Wasr10) but they are coming in as blanks and made into complete receivers in the US.

I noted both above.

 

[linx310]

Ok...first off let me introduce my self...I am linx310, the resident Romanian expert...hehe...

Go here for a run down on every thing:
http://linx310.nothingbutguns.com

1. It is NOT false. For a while (the time of the link) SARs were no linger being imported.

This stems from a company letter century realesed in late 99 that they could not import any more and were completely out of recievers. Many people beileve this letter was publicly displaced to increase sales.

2. The current SARs (like yours) are once again marked SAR (not Wasr10) but they are coming in as blanks and made into complete receivers in the US.

Wrong...this is how they are imported...

1. Rifles are built completely in Romanian, they are installed with a thumb hole stock. This reduced the number of evil features to 1, which allows a rifle to be completely of foreign manufactor(no US parts). This is why some of the rifles have crooked sights and stuff, low paid workers build these things.

2. Once in the country, the following happens:
A. Trigger, Disconector, Hammer, and Gaspiston are removed.
B. US made Trigger, Disconector, Hammer, and Gaspiston installed.
C. Thumb hole stock removed.(it is then shipped back to romanian, for instalation on the next set of rifles)
D. US made pistol grip installed
E. Foreign regular buttstock installed.

Notice the order of conversion, this is done so not at one time the rifle has the wrong number of parts to make it illegal when the second evil feature is installed, the pistol grip.

Also every reciever made must have its location of completion on. If they came in blank then the made in Cugir Romanain would be left off becuase the reciever is not a reciever until its more then 80% completed. Once the reicever is completed past the 80% mark it then becomes a "reciever" and must have the location that the reciever was completed. That is why when you purchase an 80% gun reciever it doesnt have to have the location of manufactor until it is 81% or more completed.

Also, a few days ago I just talked with a rep from a company that deals with new SARs...they informed me some new sample 2003 models had just arrived in country, and are getting to be really nice because Romanain is boosting standards becuase of NATO.

 

[SteyrAUG]

linx310, thanks I was told they were going the FMP route and coming in as blanks.

 

[762x51]

Thanks for taking the time to register and clear things up Linx. Much appreciated.

 

[MAKOwner]

Yeah, I was going to say my 2002 SAR2 has all the same markings as my 99 SAR1.

BTW, these rifles need little to nothing to be excellent AKs unless you got a real lemon. I refinished the stock on my SAR2 and it is a real beauty now. I had to de-trigger slap both guns, but they shoot perfectly now. Both have virtually 100% straight sights too. Great shooters. Several thousand rounds through my SAR1 without one single malfunction of any kind. Just shy of a 1000 through my SAR2 with the same lack of any malfunctions of any kind. If you care about finish so badly you're buying from the wrong family of guns to start with...

 

[Intune]

SAR 1

Well, I ordered my "poo" Rom SAR1 today from Shooters Wholesale in ID. 2002 model w/ten, thirty and forty rnd mags for $289.00. The store where I usually get stuff transferred to, the owner is out with flu so now I need to find an FFL to do the transfer. Called around this morn and some of these guys are amazing. $50.00 PLUS $10.00 background fee?????? One guy said he won't do them because he has to keep the paperwork for a minimum of 20 years. I heard it was 5 years but maybe it is 20. Already have the cashiers check & everthing but I guess I'll just have to wait 'till this guy returns to work. Bummed.

 

[SteyrAUG]

Intune, here is the problem. You are trying to order at "dealer price" from a wholesaler without the cost and inconvenience of pulling a FFL.

Why would ANYONE do that for you?

If I could get guns at "dealer price" transferred at $10.00 I'd never pull a FFL. I'd be able to skip license fees, code and zoning fees, occupational licenses, keeping records for 20 years (and yes it is 20, not 5), ATF inspections and the related overhead associated with running a business. Not to mention the endless parade of Gomers who honestly believe that a $10.00 "transfer fee" is gonna keep me in business for more than a month.

I don't transfer ANY firearm that comes from a wholesaler/FFL supplier directly to a customer. I will be happy to order the same firearm from one of my suppliers (the same damn wholesaler they were trying to get it from directly in the first place) and sell it to here somewhere around retail with the ridiculous notion of making a profit and running a business that actually pays it's bills.

But the ONLY things I transfer are the following:

People who bought a used/collectible gun from a auction or out of state dealer. This is NOT a wholesale/retail kind of transfer. I am simply helping them legally receive a firearm they already paid for on a deal they negotiated.

But some guy who flips through SGN and calls one of my wholesalers in the hopes of ordering "at cost" on my FFL is not a transfer situation. And contrary to popular opinion he is not in that case "doing the work" and my involvement is much more than 5 mins. of paperwork and a phone call.

 

[Intune]

SteyrAUG

I see what you are saying however, this is from Auctionarms where he had a dutch aution for these and I called him. I didn't call Century, Joeken or Aimsurplus, which are true wholesales. I think Shooters Wholesale is just the name this guy goes by. My dealer has charged me $20 plus the $10 background check for past out of state orders which I feel is reasonable. He transferred a $2,000 Beretta o/u for me six months ago. TN state tax alone for that weapon is almost $200 if I ordered it through him. He had no problem with that. What was his involvement besides filling out the form and making the background check call? I even provided the overnight pouch for the paperwork. Am I out of line here?