If the SCAR is adopted by the US military for general issue...

[Jaws]

Food for thought. The money is being spent anyway. Look what is your army spending the money instead:

(quote from another forum. Thank you DocGKR)

As reported by Army Times, current M855 is to be replaced by a new lead free load called M855 LFS. The new ATK/Lake City projectile uses a bismuth-tin core and as discussed on pages 5-6 of the new PEO ammo article the cartridge uses an improved propellant, has reduced flash, increased velocity, and better aerodynamics. The new M855 LFS projectile does not use conventional FMJ construction. Unlike current M855, the dark grey steel penetrator of the new M855 LFS extends THROUGH the jacket nose, reminiscent of the old Remington Bronze Point.

Unfortunately, according to LTC Christopher Day, the U.S. Army’s plant commander at Lake City:

"The lead-free cartridges will display the same performance as cartridges with lead...""

Given the substantial costs associated with the new lead free cartridge's development, as well as the increased cost per unit, it would be nice if M855 LFS offered substantially improved terminal performance over current M855...

Finally, while aerosolized lead from primers and exposed bullet bases is a significant cause of lead pollution on ranges, the elemental lead in projectile cores has NOT been proven to be a source of environmental lead contamination.

 

[H2O MAN]

Arbor


As for the M-14 making a comeback... Nope.

Wrong.

The M14 has been making a "comeback" since Desert Storm and it got a new lease on life late last year.

The M14 is already back and it will continue to serve for several additional years.

 

[praharin]

<....> The M14 is in a relatively few peoples hands. It's it's not making any more of a comeback than the bolt action rifle is.


Still waiting on that evidence you seem to be keeping secret over there about the issues the MK17 is having

 

[Mandolin]

Unless you always shoot the bad guy in the head with a 30mm HE round, they might survive. During the Son Tay raid, a minigun blast knocked a NVA solder down, but he survived(brielfy, a second blast killed him.) He was probaly hit in the leg and would have bled to death soon, but he could still move. I read Black Hawk Down and remembe that there were a lot of issues with the ammo's leathality. THe problem was that they ere issued 7.62 SLAP rounds and 5.56 green tip. the SLAP rounds were basicly AB sabot, as were the green tips. For some reason, AP ammo was issued for an environment with no armor. Had a technical appeared, ball ammo would work fine. We just need good ammo that kills people reliably.

And the idea that 5.56 ammo is desinged to wound rather than to kill is uderly ridiculous. A wounded man may require care but the peolpe to care for him arn't thaose who ar shooting at you. Besides, a wounded man can still kill you effectivly. And troops will always complain about there weapons. I read a book written by a marine sniper in Iraq who cam e running up to a fight and met another Marine fireing a some iraqis a long ways away. The Marine said that he had hit 3 bad guys with his "piece of s@#$t" M16A4. on a range hitting a target with an M16 is impressive, dooing it at 800 yards in combat with smoke and noise everywhere, is very good. And yes, the new sniper rifles have problems. The M14 did, as did the M16 all new weapons have problems and while it might be nice to issue everyone a rifle in .45-70, 30 rounds just dosnt work I'll take 300+ not-so leathel rounds over 80 more lethel rounds any day. And you still need to aim. Close, as the saying goes, only counts with horseshoes, hand grenades, and naval gunfire. If the Somalians had any idea how to fire acuratly, every Ranger, SEAL, and Delta comando would be dead.

 

[H2O MAN]

The comeback is continuing and more M14s are being re-issued.
<......>


As for the MK17, I have forwarded my information to someone on this forum.
This person may post details after checking into a few things. I can say that
the information he shared with me concerning the 17 was positive, making me
want to acquire a semi auto variant as soon as they become available to mere mortals.





.

 

[Mags]

The only M14s on my base are for cermonial use.

 

[Arbor]

H2O Man:

The M14 has been making a "comeback" since Desert Storm and it got a new lease on life late last year.

The M14 is already back and it will continue to serve for several additional years.

Did you even READ what I said?

It is being re-issued in limited numbers because it is a good enough rifle to fill a specific tactical niche, and it is easier and cheaper than testing a new rifle at this time.

Sounds like we both agree... the M14 is being used in a limited role by the U.S. Military and has been for years.

So has the Mossberg 500. Is the Mossberg 500 a better assault rifle than the M4? You tell me.

 

[Mags]

You mean Mossberg 500? My unit has plenty of Mossbergs.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Mossbergs outnumbered M14s in my last unit's arms room by something like 20 to zero. Does that mean its twenty times as militarily relevant?

 

[Arbor]

Yeah, I thought they used the 590 but same deal. Ubiquitous Mossberg pump action 12GA shotgun.

Mossbergs outnumbered M14s in my last unit's arms room by something like 20 to zero. Does that mean its twenty times as militarily relevant?

I guess that would make it infinitely more militarily relevant

 

[H2O MAN]

I'm glad we can all agree.

 

[ar10]

manageable recoil so the soldiers can, if needed shoot full auto acurately

I don't think that statement should even be considered. A semi-auto in a .308 is a hefty enough rifle for any grunt. You give him a full auto then the first time he hits combat the bullets are gone.

 

[woodybrighton]

The British seem happy with a 5.56 round in a bullpup rifle.
One of them argued most of the noise on the net comes from civilian shooters with nothing better to do. hunters who are used to using powerful soft nosed bullets on fluffy creatures. people who watch movies and whine to there sgt when then effects aren't like the movies

 

[Jaws]

I don't think that statement should even be considered. A semi-auto in a .308 is a hefty enough rifle for any grunt. You give him a full auto then the first time he hits combat the bullets are gone.

The full auto capability is a very good tool for your troops. Is easier to hit a moving target at ten rounds per second than at one round per second. Also you can't make future plans based on your experience fighting a handfull of insugents. What if you have to fight a big country like China, Iran, that can throw thousands of troops at your positions at the time?
The 7.62x51mm has proved to be a very big mistake shoved down NATO's throat. :banghead: Much bigger mistake that the next round.

 

[SeekHer]

Well, if they went to .308 (highly doubtful, nearly impossible, extremely problematic) I guess I'd just have to change my AR15 to an AR10 by changing the upper or to some other calibre like 6.8 SPC (which has a much greater chance of being accepted)...

Or 2nd scenario--there will be a **** load of Mil-Surp ammo and guns available for other countries or individuals can buy...

It isn't so much that SF has the pick of any weapon out there--which they do to an extent but what can be procured for X hundreds or thousands of their operatives/soldiers when they require it--excluding single mission specific weapons on a squad or platoon sized operation! The other and most important matter is resupply of ammo so it makes sense to use what’s common, available most anywhere and the .223 falls into that category…

As to using the discarded AKs, of course they do…use the enemies resources against themselves and save your ammo for later…

 

[Robert]

Is the M14 a fine rifle? Yes. Are they being reissued in varying configurations to snipers and squad shard shooters? Yes. Is the M14 replacing the M4 in the hands of every soldier as some would make it seem? No. Not even close. My best friend has done two tours in Iraq, wounded on the second, and is presently in Afghanistan. In Iraq his squad sharp shooter carried a M14 or M21 I forget which. But none the less a M14 style rifle. He said it was a wonderful thing to know he was around with it. But the rest of the squad, platoon, company was issues and carried M4s. I am a great fan of the 7.62x51 but it presents some problems in that you can only carry so much ammo in a load out due to the higher weight. My brother was a 240B team leader for 2 years. He is hard as a coffin nail and even he said carrying his full assistant gunners load out was like hauling around a dead mule. We all want "our" rifle to win, and hell if the FAL had a snow ball's chance in hell of making a come back I'd be pulling for it. But folks lets keep things civil and High Road. And with all the money his holiness is spending these days one would think that a few hundred million for a refit and new rifle for the troops would be easy to come by...

 

[H2O MAN]

Gus McCrae

Is the M14 replacing the M4 in the hands of every soldier as some would make it seem?

Who made it seem like the M14 was replacing the M4 in any way, shape or form?

Please explain to me how this ridiculous idea got started.


.

 

[Robert]

Sir,
I did in no way, shape or form call you out by name, but as my mom has often said,
"If the shoe fits, wear it."
But since you seem to think I was talking about you I will say this. Your history of unwavering fanaticism about the M14 platform and your posts that thousands have been returned to service with more on the way would seem to indicate that you truly pine for and desire the total return of the M14 over any other weapons platform. I will give you this, the M14 makes for some wonderful photo ops, now some targets photos to go along with them would be great to see.

 

[H2O MAN]

Are you feeling guilty of something Gus? Are your shoes fitting perfectly?
I didn't accuse anyone... I asked the following question.

"Who made it seem like the M14 was replacing the M4 in any way, shape or form?
Please explain to me how this ridiculous idea got started."

Your response tells me that you were implying more than you are willing to admit.

 

[Art Eatman]

Arrrrrgghhh!

Kerflush...