Ignition problem - CCI 500s in 9mm

[16in50calNavalRifle]

Hmmm. In my reloading experience I've had a handful of duds (primer failing to ignite). High-seated primers seemed the answer in those few cases.

But this week in a little tactical move-and-shoot drill, I had four duds in about 200 rounds (9mm, XD9 pistol, CCI 500s).

Examing the dud cases under magnification, the primers appear seated fully/normally, no differently than the fired cases for comparison. I also looked at several unfired rounds from the same production "run" - primers look fine.

The only visible difference between dud and fired cases - a slightly (slightly) shallower "dimple" where the firing pin struck in the duds vs. the fired cases. Not sure if that is an artifact of the primer changing shape due to ignition, and not the result of a light firing pin strike, however.

Light strike due to pistol problem. High seating of primers in case. Faulty primers. Those are the only reasons for a dud, correct? If that is the menu of possible explanations, I have a bit of a mystery here, as the pistol clearly is firing almost all the rounds normally, and the primers appear seated correctly.

 

[kyhunter]

I'm having the same problem in 9mm and .38 special. I've been wondering and have messed around with heavier striker springs and the like and have had no luck. I wish I could offer advice but I'm just here for to read the replies

 

[243winxb]

9s head space on the case mouth. To much crimp or short case length may let the ammo move forward to far when the pin strikes it. But slow velocity of the pin is most common. Clean firing pin channel/gun. Weak hammer spring??

 

[mdi]

The only gun I've ever experience misfires in is a striker fired 9mm. And that was only with Winchester primers, but every other primer fired correctly. Cleaned pistol completely, and just very lightly lubed firing pin channel but still got 1 or 2 out of every 16 round magazine FTFs. My remedy turned out to be "preloading" the primers. (I've read some call it "sensitizing"). I normally seat primers all the way to the bottom of the pocket which has worked fine for the first 29 years of my reloading, but for the 9mm handgun I had to seat the primers "normally" and then add a slight bit more "uumf" or pressure to "preload" the primers. Now every preloaded primer fires 100% of the time...

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

243xb, my best guess is also firing pin problem - or striker problem, as this is an XD. XDs have slides that are not simple to fully strip and clean, so far I have resisted the temptation to do so (I know many people do it anyway). The striker channel appears quite clean - I'm careful to keep it dry and mostly use compressed air to clean it.

May shoot another 500 rounds and see what happens before any dramatic action (which might include sending the slide into Springfield for cleaning/service).

Thanks for the replies, and keep those ideas coming. Not sure I have all the possible explanations under consideration.

 

[Reefinmike]

could very well be high seated primers still... Did you try to shoot them again? The first strike of the firing pin typically will seat the primer fully and not set it off. a second strike will generally fire.

high primers or you are crimping way too much and have improper headspacing of the round.

 

[gamestalker]

I load for a lot of different pistols, including XD's, and I've not had a single mis fire, ever.

I would check the following:

Make sure your crimp is only enough to close the belling used during seating. When correctly performed, there should be no visible crimp. And as explained above, too much crimp, and the case mouth will head space too deep in the throat, thus causing light strikes, and it could also possible cause high pressure spikes on those that do fire.

The other thing is primer seating depth. how they look when seated is meaningless, simply put, primers need to be seated until you can feel them make hard contact with the bottom of the pocket.

Also bullet seating depth is a possible cause. If the bullet is up against the lands, the cartridge will move forward when struck by the firing pin, thus greatly reducing the depth of the firing pin strike, in other words, causing light strikes. The inertia of the firing pin strike is absorbed by the cartridge being able to move forward.

The only other possibles would be contamination, or bad primers. Of those two options I would be far more inclined to think contamination, as I've never had a single bad primer, ever, and I use CCI's almost exclusively.

GS

 

[murf]

how does your pistol perform with commercial ammo? would run some through the gun before proceeding.

murf

 

[9mmepiphany]

Folks have already mentioned most of the things I would have...high primer and/or dirty striker channel.

I'll just mention that when checking your loaded rounds, remember that the primers need to be below flush with the back of the case

 

[RainDodger]

I know you said the primers looked to be seated fine. Nevertheless, check their depth. I was having the same problem a while back and found that nearly every fail-to-fire round had a primer that was seated nearly .008" below flush.

I had recently started priming on a very heavy-duty Redding UltraMag press and without even knowing it, I was seating and crushing the primers too deeply. I even talked to the CCI tech guys, as I was using CCI 500s also. (unfortunately, now I have nearly 4,000 unreliable, primed cases... what a waste... and a lesson...)

 

[guzzi]

same issue here

16in50calNavalRifle I have traveled the same path as you.

In my wife's case it was with a XD(M) 3.8 with the same primers. Light primmer strikes once in a while initially, then the problem became more common as time and use went on. Other 9mm's that we have never had any issues with the same loads.

At first I explored all the things that have been mentioned so far on this thread.

The fix turned out to be installing a Springer Precision striker spring. After that was done, the pistol returned to being it's dependable and accurate self. A few weeks later I replaced the recoil spring and some magazine springs just because it's a spring, and it's an easy job.

The original spring had become week over 5 years of competition, practice, drills, and being carried often as a CCW.

Since the replacement about 500 rounds have run through this pistol without any issues.

 

[Rule3]

could very well be high seated primers still... Did you try to shoot them again? The first strike of the firing pin typically will seat the primer fully and not set it off. a second strike will generally fire.

high primers or you are crimping way too much and have improper headspacing of the round.

I was going to ask the same thing. If they go bang then it is seating error. Most of the time this is the issue.

Other than that have any guns been "fiddled" with as in trigger jobs springs etc??

 

[Captcurt]

9s head space on the case mouth. To much crimp or short case length may let the ammo move forward to far when the pin strikes it. But slow velocity of the pin is most common. Clean firing pin channel/gun. Weak hammer spring??

I would check this first. It has all of the symptoms of the headspace being out. You might also go to a softer primer in the case of a light hammer/striker fall. Winchester and Federal are both softer than CCI with Federal being the softest.

 

[1SOW]

You might also go to a softer primer in the case of a light hammer/striker fall. Winchester and Federal are both softer than CCI with Federal being the softest.

A light hammer or striker spring can cause light strikes on the harder primer cups. CCI is the hardest USA primer cup. Federal is the easiest to ignite
My comp pistols will only fire Feds 100% of the time.

Have you tried a second strike on the FTF primers? When the primer is seated too shallow, the first strike usually seats it deeper--so when checked, they look fine. These will usually fire if struck a second time.

Ooops, Rule3 already had it covered.

 

[FROGO207]

An improperly seated primer is probably the reason as mentioned above in several posts. Especially if you are loading/priming on a progressive press. A weak spring would be the other thought depending on round count. You could take the barrel out of the pistol and see where the case head ends up in the chamber compared to other reloads or to factory ammo using the plunk test. Too much crimp should show easily this way.

 

[243winxb]

Cleaning Striker fired

Firing pin protrusion- BDS has great photo on cleaning a striker fired Glock here > Post #24 http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=625875 Or see photos here http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/slideshow/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/Glock%2017%20Striker The XD9 would be different. May be just a bad lot of primers.

 

[BSA1]

Hmmm. In my reloading experience I've had a handful of duds (primer failing to ignite). High-seated primers seemed the answer in those few cases.

I have reloaded my own ammunition for many years with very few problems. Then. like you, I ran into a batch of 9mm I have reloaded with Winchester Small Pistol Primers with the same problem.

With two of the rounds I easily figured out the problem. The primer fell out from the recoil before it was fed into the chamber! Gee I guess brass eventually wears out. Most of the others fired on the second strike. It did give us malfunctioning gun drill practice. Some of the primers felt a bit high so I reseated them.

I should mention that with my range ammo I just dump the brass into one can, clean and reload them. Never trim my brass and I only cull them when I run into problems usually on the reloading bench. So problems once in while can be expected.

Now here is the part that puzzles me the most. I am a coffee can reloader. All of my loaded ammunition goes into a plastic coffee can. There are probably 500 rounds or so rounds in it. When we go shooting it is grab a handful of ammo, load up and shoot. So the bad rounds are randomly picked out of the can and shot.

The part that puzzles me is every round fire the first time in my Beretta 92. This is the only time I have ran into misfires I don't know the cause. I have another 25+ year old 9mm that was also giving me misfires but replacing all of the springs with new ones from Wolff fixed that problem. Second lesson learned. Springs wear out and should be replaced on a regular interval.

I have chalked this experience to a fluke so far the rest of the ammo in the can has shot fine. Later this fall after the grass dies back so I can find my brass I am going to shoot the rest of the ammo which should show any problems with the remaining primers. I am also going to inspect my brass and cull the ones that look like they are getting close to being too tired to reload.

 

[rsrocket1]

Do you package your reloads in factory or plastic boxes after loading or do you dump them into a big box or can? I store all my rounds face down in factory boxes. It serves two purposes. First, I get one last check on the primers. High seated primers are easily identified. I then mark all the rounds with a ruler and Sharpie. That way all my fired brass is marked for easy ID at the range. I also plunk test each round as I put them into the tray. Easier to correct a problem at the loading bench rather than to experience one at the range.

OP has not confirmed or denied second tries at the misfires. My money is on the primer seating or striker problem and not the primers themselves. I use CCI 400 SRP's for both .223 and all my SPP applications (9/38/357/40) and never had a problem with ignition. Then again, I don't mess with hammer springs/striker springs. They are all stock even though some have had over 30,000 cycles through them.

 

[BSA1]

rsrocket1,

If your question is for me I reload 9mm on single stage press. I do each step in batches of several hundred at a time so I don't have to change the dies as often. I deprime and resize a big batch, then prime all of them, then flair the case mouths, etc. I hand prime my brass and place the loaded rounds bullet down in a loading tray. I then do the finger test for high primers and then dump them into a coffee can.

I do need to order a new hand priming tool as mine is getting worn out.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

Wow, many thanks for the avalanche of well-informed responses. Will ponder the analagous situations (primer issues in striker-fired pistols after years of trouble-free operation) a bit, especially.

I will try to address many issues raised (which serve to narrow down the candidate causes).

Yes, re-tried one or two of the duds, several times. No joy.

I "plunk test" every semi-auto pistol round I load (9mm and 45ACP), at the bench, as the final step. I then place them in loading trays, primers up, to do a touch/visual check for primer seating. Every round.

I then either 1) store them in plastic ammo boxes (MTM) or 2) dump them, "bulk" style, into an ammo can (from which I then draw to fill plastic ammo boxes for the range.

Lee Classic Turret press, not progressive.

Have used thousands of CCI 500, understand they are hard, use Federals for my snub-nose revolver ammo for this reason.

I am very skeptical that headspace/crimp issues are at play. My 9mm "crimp" is, as advised by the experienced folks here, just removal of any flare, no actual crimp. And I have loaded 9mm that way for 4-5 years, obviously thousands of rounds.

As I said, the striker channel appears very clean - though since it's an XD I haven't actually detail stripped and cleaned the slide.

I am going to contact Springfield for their comment. My guess at this point: time for spring replacement. If I'd go through my range log I actually could get a rough round count for the pistol, within 500 rounds (sometimes I failed to log in steel matches). Think I will do that before contacting Springfield.

Before I do that, I think I'll fire off the rest (250 or so) of the rounds from the batch with the primer issues (again, 4 duds in around 200 rounds). See if there are any, or many, more.

It may time for spring replacement - and as noted in the original post, I might just send off the slide to Springfield for complete servicing/cleaning. My detail strip ambitions are satisfied by cleaning my 1911 and working on my Mosins, Garands, and M1 carbines.

Again, sincere thanks for the typical THR response - comprehensively knowledgeable and helpful.

 

[Reefinmike]

Sounds like you have covered all your bases. Id go with a new striker spring. I would not mention reloads if you call springfield. My ammo if choice when dealing with taurus was "federal champion, wwb or any other low price brass ammo".

After 35k rounds, my revolver is needing a new hammer spring. It no longer lights off the small rifle primers when shooting double action.

 

[Mad Chemist]

Has anyone mentioned the pencil test yet?

Take empty gun, mag removed and gun inspected per normal dry fire protocol.
Insert #2pencil, eraser end first, into the bbl.
Tilt muzzle upward at least 15deg.
Aim in a safe direction and press the trigger.
Pencil should launch from the bbl and travel anywhere from 3-10ft.
All of my striker fired guns will launch a pencil at least 6 feet at 15deg bbl elevation.

If you are getting light strikes due to crud in the striker channel or mechanical failure of any of the striker components the test should make that clear immediately. If the gun will stick a sharp pencil into the ceiling, then you obviously do not have a problem with any of the striker components

 

[Mad Chemist]

Naval Rifle,

I doubt that detail stripping the slide on an XD is much more difficult than detail stripping a glock slide. Watch a couple of You Tube videos and make sure none of the compressed springs are allowed to launch into low-earth orbit After you do it a couple of times it gets really easy to do it quickly.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

Mad Chemist, I'll try the pencil test - forgot that one. But as I said, if 4 out of 200 are duds ..... not exactly a systematic malfunction of the firearm.

As to detail stripping an XD slide, we'll see. It's not like a 1911 - it's not designed to be easy to disassemble. Lots of punches and pins etc. Next step is to shoot another 200 from the same reload batch, see what happens.

 

[gamestalker]

Really, I've stripped lots of XD's, they're pretty straight forward IMO.

But still, I would focus my attention on primer seating depth, as in making sure they are seated all the way home. This isn't something that can be determined by physical appearance, but by the feel of the primer bottoming out in the pocket, the feel of preloading the anvil. Some brass will require .007" or .008" below flush, others only .002" or .003", it just depends.

And most times an improperly seated primer, or one that wasn't seated deep enough will detonate on subsequent attempts, not always but most times.

GS