IL UUW Ruled unconstitutional

Status
Not open for further replies.
Unless I'm mistaken...

In 180 days unlawful use of a weapon code is abolished; new legislation will have to be crafted which replaces it between now and then.

If they do NOT pass something...

That leaves FOID standing.

Not *quite* constitutional carry but good enough.

I'm hoping they fight, but do nothing, fight some more, still do nothing, and fight some more while still doing nothing. :)
Trent, you and I are on EXACTLY the same page. :)

Warner
 
Anyone care to bet the mainstream media will be predicting mayhem in the streets for IL by lawful gunowners if the SCOTUS decision is allowed to stand unimpeeded, despite it not happening in the other "n" states that now have CCW of one kind or another?

Sort of like taking odds on the sun rising...
Oh, of course. That goes without saying. I bet they DON'T report how the violent crime rate DROPS after implementing CCW.

Warner
 
Posted this morning on ISRA facebook comments;

Illinois State Rifle Association: We will be pushing for "Shall Issue", not may issue.

Illinois State Rifle Association: We are in the best possible position. Lets allow the lobbyist to do their work. They will not let us down.

And I've been riling up the masses;

Travis xxxxxxx 1) I agree completely with Trent. DO NOT CALL YOUR LEGISLATOR AND TELL THEM TO PUSH HB148 THROUGH!!! Rep. Brandon Phelps, who wrote HB148, has already said that compromise is going out the window now and the anti-gun Democrats should have passed his bill when they had the chance, because now they're going to be sorry they didn't. 2) I had the exact same idea, Tony... we've already got FOID cards, and the form is nearly identical to a CCL application. I say mandate some remedial education/marksmanship training course and FOID is now CCL.

See, that's the smartest thing I've read all day.

"I agree completely with Trent".

Hehehe :)
 
I re-reviewed HB148 today to refresh my memory on the various conditions and limitations contained in it. What once seemed palatable when it was "better than nothing" and our only hope of concealed carry, now seems ridiculously burdensome and unreasonable.

Here's just a partial list of the problems in the current bill:

* It's limited to handguns only. People should have the right to carry other weapons as well, such as a knife. Doesn't make sense that it should be illegal for a person to choose a less lethal alternative.

* It purports to be a "shall issue" statute, but there are provisions in the bill that seem to convert the "shall issue" nature of the bill into a "may issue." For instance, in Section 20(e), it states that "Notwithstanding subsection (a), the Department may consider any objection or recommendation made by the sheriff and may determine the applicant is ineligible based solely on those objections." In other words, even if an applicant satisfies all of the statutory prerequisites, the application can still be denied if their local sheriff objects.

* I don't like the co-existance of FOID and a concealed carry bill, because they are largely duplicative. You go through the whole background check and application process to get a FOID card, and then you have to be put through the same wringer again to get a CC license. The entire gun scheme in Illinois needs to be harmonized. In my own opinion, having a FOID card should be completely sufficient to be allowed to carry. But that probably isn't going to happen, so instead, how about having FOID cards that indicate somewhere on the card whether the holder is allowed to concealed carry in public.

* Cut out the whole Sheriff layer of the application process. The FOID application process takes way too long with just the State Police to deal with. Adding in the Sheriff's office will only further delay the process and it is completely unnecessary and drives up the cost and administrative hassle.

* The $100 application fee is way too high. It should cost $10 at most. The right to carry is a fundamental, constitutional right -- not simply a privilege like a driver's license. Similarly, a $50 renewal fee is ridiculous.

* The license only lasts 5 years. Why does a FOID card last 10 years but a CC license only lasts 5 years? Makes no sense. Should last for 10 years at least, especially if there are going to be excessive fees.

* One of the requirements for getting the license is that the applicant not have a misdemeanor in the past 10 years involving the use, possession or distribution of a controlled substance or cannabis. This goes too far. A simple possession of pot misdemeanor should not disqualify a person from holding a license for the next 10 years.

* The bill requires an applicant to sign a "waiver of privacy and confidentiality rights and privileges enjoyed by the applicant under all federal and State laws, including those governing access to juvenile court, criminal justice, psychological or psychiatric records, or records relating to the applicant's history of institutionalization, and an affirmative request that any person having custody of any such record provide it or information concerning it to the Department." This is ridiculous. You shouldn't have to sign away your constitutional right to privacy to excercise a different constitutional right.

* Have to submit a full set of fingerprints with the application. Of course, this increases the cost of application by up to another $25 on top of the $100 fee and whatever it costs for the training and education classes.

* The Department has to establish a searchable database available to a whole host of people containing just about every private piece of information existing about every applicant, including everything contained in the applications. This is totally overboard. At most, the Department should be allowed to keep a list of current license holders, and if local law enforcement or a judge wants to know if a person is licensed they should submit a request for that information with justification for why they need to know. This is another example of the State trying to get people to give up all their privacy rights in exchange for the right to carry. No way.

* A license holder is required to report a change of address within 30 days and must report a lost or stolen license within 30 days.

* Speaking of change of address, if a license holder changes their address, they have to pay another $25 fee and issue all sorts of new information including a new photograph just to get a new card with the new address on it.

* If the license is lost or stolen, a person has to get a police report in order to get a new license.

* The list of places where you can't carry is way too broad.

* You cannot carry in "any establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises if less than 50% of its annual gross income comes from the sale of food." How the hell is a person supposed to know the annual gross incomes of an establishment? There are tons of bars/restaurants where patrons won't be able to figure this out. The prohibited locations are supposed to put up a sign saying that guns aren't allowed, but if they fail to put up the sign, it doesn't excuse you from breaking the law by carrying a gun in that location.

* The bill requires a license holder to "immediately disclose" to a police officer if they are carrying a firearm. Failure to do this is a Class B Misdemeanor. I don't mind the separate provision that requires license holders to inform police officers when asked, but an "immediate disclosure" law is just a trap to ensare innocent victims. It seems to me that such immediate disclosure would simply spook an officer. If an officer stopped a car for a simple speeding ticket and the officer approached the driver who immediately shouts, "I've got a gun!" that would be unsettling.

* The training/education requirements are too excessive.

So, if our legislators want to pass HB148 they need to do a ton of editing.

Edit: Just saw the more recent posts about the FOID card playing the role of a concealed carry license. This is exactly right. FOID card holders have already been screened as responsible citizens permitted to own guns, so what's the big deal about letting those same citizens walk out their front door now?
 
Last edited:
What ISRA is failing to realize here... is this.

AT THE MOMENT, ANYTHING SHORT OF FOID = RIGHT TO CARRY IS A CONCESSION.

MURDER will still be ILLEGAL.

ASSAULT WITH A DEADLY WEAPON will still be ILLEGAL.

*100% of all violent crimes you can commit with a firearm WILL STILL BE ILLEGAL.*

There is absolutely NO reason to pass ANY legislation because all gun crime is still covered by existing laws.

Let UUW die, and leave it at that.
 
If Unlawful Use of Weapons is struck down in it's entirety as unconstitutional, and no legislation is passed to replace it... there's no more machinegun ban in IL.

... Right?
 
I've seen a lot of comments about what happens if legislators don't do anything in the next 180 days. One aspect of non-action that has not been discussed is the fact that home-rule municipalities and counties are free to enact their own regulatory scheme concerning the carrying of firearms in public. Yes, those schemes might exceed the bounds of the Constitution, but it would take years to get to the stage where they are tossed out.

My point is that even if the General Assembly doesn't act, I'm sure that Chicago and other anti-gun locations would enact their own regulatory schemes. As for my own selfish interests, it won't affect me because I live in a pro-gun town and travel to Cook County maybe once a year. But there are numerous people who I am sure are hoping that the GA can get a bill passed in the next 180 days that has statewide preemption so that they aren't stuck with the crazy anti-gun regulations that their local politicians would come up with. Also, people have argued here before about the unsatisfactory nature of having a patchwork quilt of carrying laws across the state, where a traveler would never know for sure if he is in compliance with the laws of the particular location he finds himself.

I agree that we are in a position of great leverage right now. But, not as much as some of you seem to be implying. The extreme anti-gun politicians in Chicago and some of the suburbs care about their own geographic area 99% and downstate 1%. If you tell a Chicago Democrat, "screw you, if you don't agree to our proposal we just won't pass anything," he doesn't really have to worry about unlimited carrying on the streets of Chicago because Chicago would be free to pass its own laws. Push too hard and the anti-gun crowd will simply say, "fine, downstate can carry their guns however they want but Cook County will pass our own regulations."
 
If Unlawful Use of Weapons is struck down in it's entirety as unconstitutional, and no legislation is passed to replace it... there's no more machinegun ban in IL.

... Right?
The UUW statute is not being struck down in its entirety. Just the provision that prevents people from carrying a weapon in public places.
 
then let a patchwork of local laws get struck down as unconstitutional, expensively and embarrassingly


eventually the congressthings and alderthings will get the message
 
In reference to the Barbara Flynn Currie (D-Chicago) quote in the Tribune posted above,

“If we need to change the law, let us at least craft a law that is very severely constrained and narrowly tailored so that we don’t invite guns out of control on each of our city’s streets,” Currie said. “I don’t want people out of control wandering the streets with guns that are out of control.”

In these two sentences, the word 'control' appears three times with 'constrained' thrown in for measure.

Could "control" be what oppressive gun laws are about? :what: :)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...s-concealedcarry-ban-20121211,0,7034171.story
 
As a resident of Illinois, I’d like the pro-gun legislators to do NOTHING, and agree to NOTHING. In that case, we wait 6 months and have constitutional carry. Then the gun grabbers only have 2 choices (other than the default action, which is constitutional carry):

1 – Take to the case to the US Supreme Court (who in my estimation wouldn’t even HEAR the case because it has such far-reaching ramifications for ALL of the states. If they lose there, the entire COUNTRY is affected and would get constitutional carry)

I think if they appeal it to SCOTUS the case gets heard because there is something close to a circuit split. There is no downside to appealing it for the IL crowd. Given the circuit split the NY case will get heard even if IL does not appeal this one. if they don't appel it in 180 days they are totally screwed. If they do appeal it, they at least get a chance at an extension of the 180 days.

OR

2 – Pass whatever law the pro-gun crowd wants (and they'd only agree to this if it were MORE restrictive than constitutional carry)

What makes you think the so called pro-gun crowd is in favor of constitutional carry? The NRA is in the driver's seat here and nothing I have ever seen out of them tells me they would even consider it. The NRA lobbyist has already publicly said they will be trying for a highly restrictive law like FL.

The bottom line is, Madigan and company do not have too many options at the end of the day, as long as the pro-gun people don’t fold and agree to something stupid.


PS – There are MANY Democrats that support the 2nd amendment….this is NOT a partisan issue!

Keep in mind that if we use this once in a lifetime chance to get most of what we ultimately really want, and I think it is possible, what do we need the NRA for down the road? The NRA is not stupid and is not going to put itself out of business.
 
I've seen a lot of comments about what happens if legislators don't do anything in the next 180 days. One aspect of non-action that has not been discussed is the fact that home-rule municipalities and counties are free to enact their own regulatory scheme concerning the carrying of firearms in public. Yes, those schemes might exceed the bounds of the Constitution, but it would take years to get to the stage where they are tossed out.

My point is that even if the General Assembly doesn't act, I'm sure that Chicago and other anti-gun locations would enact their own regulatory schemes. As for my own selfish interests, it won't affect me because I live in a pro-gun town and travel to Cook County maybe once a year. But there are numerous people who I am sure are hoping that the GA can get a bill passed in the next 180 days that has statewide preemption so that they aren't stuck with the crazy anti-gun regulations that their local politicians would come up with. Also, people have argued here before about the unsatisfactory nature of having a patchwork quilt of carrying laws across the state, where a traveler would never know for sure if he is in compliance with the laws of the particular location he finds himself.

I agree that we are in a position of great leverage right now. But, not as much as some of you seem to be implying. The extreme anti-gun politicians in Chicago and some of the suburbs care about their own geographic area 99% and downstate 1%. If you tell a Chicago Democrat, "screw you, if you don't agree to our proposal we just won't pass anything," he doesn't really have to worry about unlimited carrying on the streets of Chicago because Chicago would be free to pass its own laws. Push too hard and the anti-gun crowd will simply say, "fine, downstate can carry their guns however they want but Cook County will pass our own regulations."

You mean city ordinances (and county).

So if I get busted carrying a firearm in Chicago I get a fine, can challenge it, and win when it goes to court because there's a federal precedent.

I'm cool with that.

Heck, that's a lot better than a felony, which it currently is.

If it was just ordinances and fines right now, I'd carry all the time and just pay the city/county fine when I get pulled over. (Which, I haven't been pulled over for a traffic stop in 12 years, but that's neither here nor there.)
 
Source, IL Constitution:

(d) A home rule unit does not have the power (1) to
incur debt payable from ad valorem property tax receipts
maturing more than 40 years from the time it is incurred or
(2) to define and provide for the punishment of a felony.
 
Last edited:
Midwest, yeah there's a lot about the NRA that I really don't like. Including their actions in THIS state.

In case anyone is wondering, yes, I'm a "life member."

I feel that gives me the right to criticize them whenever they do something I don't like and point out the past mistakes.

If you don't learn from history... (and get reminded from time to time)... you're bound to repeat it!
 
Trent , I didn't want to derail the thread. But history is important, because we need to know how things got to be the way they are in order to prevent them from reoccurring again. One of the people that was helping Dodd with the 1968 GCA was a NJ Attorney General named Arthur Sills.

I know this for a fact as I was looking over the minutes for the hearing for a 1966 Firearms ID Card Law in NJ. Someday I'd like to publish the hearings here or at the New Jersey gun forums. It is a fantastic insight of the mind of an anti gunner hell bent (in my opinion) on restricting law abiding gun owners .

Sills bragged about helping Dodd with ideas for 'the upcoming gun legislation' now known as '1968 GCA'. OK, so what does some (now obscure) Attorney General from NJ have anything to do with Illinois? Read On....

Sills was also the main player in pushing through passage of New Jersey's FID card law in 1966. Anyway as I understand it from research, Illinois got their inspiration for the FOID card from New Jersey's FID card law (which Sills worked on). As I understand it, Illinois instituted their own firearms card ID law in 1968, just two years after New Jersey did theirs.

So now you have a piece of history that few know about and might answer some questions on why Illinois and New Jersey are among the most restrictive for gun rights.
 
Heck, that's a lot better than a felony, which it currently is.

If it was just ordinances and fines right now, I'd carry all the time and just pay the city/county fine when I get pulled over. (Which, I haven't been pulled over for a traffic stop in 12 years, but that's neither here nor there.)
They can put you in the Cook County jail for up to one year, and you do not want to be there for one day.
 
They can put you in the Cook County jail for up to one year, and you do not want to be there for one day.

Well, there is that. :(


Also, that was an excellent synopsis of HB148 you posted earlier.

Thanks for taking the time to compile that. I didn't even notice a couple of those issues when I read through it.

MAN they made a lot of concessions.
 
As soon as the 180 days have elapsed, no political entity within the 7th Circuit's area may have or enforce a law that is not compliant with Judge Posner's ruling.

The chances of SCOTUS taking an appeal are slim. SCOTUS takes only about 2% of the requested cases. They may have more interest in this one because of the subject matter, and because Posner is well regarded. But I think it is a safe bet that the chances of an appeal being accepted are below 10%.

So the odds strongly favor this continuing to be the law of the land within the 7th Circuit, unless another Circuit makes a conflicting ruling. In that case, SCOTUS would most likely accept an appeal.

Posner's ruling puts the pro-2A legislators in a powerful position. The antis have a choice between something they hate and something they loathe and detest.

Given the ruling, I expect another suit in fairly short order, challenging the FOID card. Posner is pretty clear: Keeping and bearing arms, inside and outside the home, is a fundamental, protected right. Requiring government permission to exercise a fundamental, protected right is a big no-no.
 
denton,

The 2nd Circuit issued an opinion a few weeks ago that is inconsistent with the 7th Circuit's opinion, so there is somewhat of a split right now. That greatly increases the possibility of the Supreme Court taking the case. Also the court is more likely to accept an appeal where the government lost in the lower court and is challenging the ruling.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any chance of a court tossing out the FOID card act. Keep in mind that since Heller was decided the few pro-gun wins in court have usually only involved total bans. The vast majority of cases have upheld a whole host of gun regulations.
 
One thing that makes an appeal extremely hard to win for Lisa Madigan, is that they already had their opportunity to prove that their CCW ban increased public safety and reduced crime, of course, they couldn't prove that. So an appeal is really pointless.

The Governor made an announcement that they still want to push for an AWB while passing the concealed carry bill, so we know that's not going to happen either.

Regardless, we in IL win regardless.
 
Why not just pass a bill honoring Florida concealed weapon permits?:D

Unfortunately, I don't think there's any chance of a court tossing out the FOID card act.

I agree.

Think marriage license and voter registration.
These put "restrictions" on Constitutional rights, but are are still Constitutional.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top