Illegal guns at gunshow/some sellers just don't care.

[wideym]

I went to the Ft. Smith gunshow at the convention center saturday. That's seven dollars and 30 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

There was about 20 tables that actually sold guns or accessories. At one table was a Ak in pistol configuration with a wooden foregrip. My understanding of AOWs and short barrel rifles is: AOWs=Pistol with a foregrip/no buttstock SBR=barrel lenght under 16". This was an AK with a 10" barrel, no buttstock just a metal plate riveted on back, and a wooden foregrip like the Eastern bloc countries use.

I asked if it was an AOW and the man didn't know what I was talking about. I told him that without a tax stamp he could be arrested and that if someone bought it they could be arrested. He said "Are you a cop and if not who cares?".

Personally I find this repuslive that he would sell a gun that could get someone arrested just to make a buck. Thinking back I should have asked a LEO to look into it, but couldn't quite do it for fear of gunshows getting banned locally. If I am wrong about the AOW law please speak up.

BTW this was the only time I saw an illegal gun at a gunshow.

 

[Roccobro]

If it had a pistol grip in the normal place, couldn't it be an ugly pistol build and nothing more?

and a wooden foregrip like the Eastern bloc countries use.

So you mean like the Romy G kits have, a second pistol type grip in the lower hand guard? That would have been a problem here in CA...

Justin

 

[wideym]

No, it had a foregrip in addition to the regular pistol grip.

 

[mp510]

A lot of folks who aren't into NFA guns don't know many of the nuances. Cabelas listed an SP-89 and a AR pistol on their sight in conditions that were technically AOW's.

 

[Anteater1717]

I believe that would make it an SBR.

 

[wideym]

Either way selling a non-taxed weapon to an unsuspecting buyer is wrong, expecially after I informed him.

 

[FourTeeFive]

No shoulder stock, then it isn't an SBR

But it does sound like an AOW according to the BATF (as silly as it may be):

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/041006-vert_grip.htm

Adding a Vertical Fore Grip to a Handgun

“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…. Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) as any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e).

ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.

To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.

A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2. The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4, which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.

 

[Offwhite]

Who is this dealer? You should turn him over to me Plus any firearms he may have in his possesion

Remember don't tell anyone

 

[B. Adams]

It is technically an AOW, and the ATF will tell you that. However, IIRC, there was only one case where someone was tried for having a pistol with a vertical foregrip, and the judge basically threw out the charge because he felt that it was the same as any other pistol.

That "pistol" was definitely against illegal unless it's registered as an AOW, and that "dealer" was in violation of the law.

While I wouldn't want to test the ATF on the matter, busting people for vertical foregrips isn't exactly their highest priority. However, at the very least it would be an expensive hassle if you got caught, or it could land you in federal PMITA prison for a decade or so.

 

[Nickotym]

OP - was the foregrip a vertical foregrip?

 

[2E8B]

You are wrong about it being legal (maybe). Possibly wrong about it being AOW (which usually refers to a specific class of short, non-shoulder fired firearms, usually of the smoothbore variant). It depends if the gun in question was modified from a rifle, or built on a virgin receiver. If built on a virgin receiver (read: one that as never been configured as a rifle) and configured as a pistol WITHOUT a vertical foregrip, then the firearm is legal on a federal level (pending 922r compliance). What would be left to be seen is if it would remain legal under state laws.

 

[LiquidTension]

No, it's definitely not legal in the configuration described.

 

[Offwhite]

You are wrong about it being legal (maybe).

Don't call someone "wrong" very strongly just to follow it up with "maybe" at the end.

No, it's definitely not legal in the configuration described

Maybe it's just not a good description

No, you're out of order & you're out of order this whole thing is out of order! hahaha.

 

[Amish_Bill]

Decidedly AOW configuration. Pistol w/ foregrip = AOW according to the ATF. Somehow they construe a foregrip on a pistol and making it not a handgun.

 

[Robert Hairless]

BTW this was the only time I saw an illegal gun at a gunshow.

Go out and find more. Your message thread is entitled "Illegal guns at gunshow/some sellers just don't care." You've exaggerated one gun from one seller into more than one of each, sort of like the anti gun people do. With that approach you could exaggerate a .22 pistol into a cache of assault weapons and a round of ammunition into a cache of dangerous explosives.

Since you're so outraged at this clear example of the notorious Gun Show Loophole that the Bradys and others want to close, it's your duty to contact the BATF to report that seller. The BATF can take action. Then contact Rep. Carolyn McCarthy and give her a copy of your report. She'll distribute it to others in Congress and to the press to support the drive to close down gun shows. You'll have accomplished something noteworthy instead of whatever it is you think you're doing.

The Internet can't act on your vague report of someone you think did something wrong--unless there's a forum law enforcement team ready to swoop down--so where's the point in what you're doing here?

 

[eliphalet]

Good chance what the guy had was legal. If you had been a cop he would have explained things to you. Otherwise he didn't want to be told what for, and I don't blame him. If he was illegal telling him was doing him a favor, which was all he deserved. Are you a cop or ATF? If not I would say MYOB it ain't your job.

 

[MICHAEL T]

We need to get rid of all these silly laws. Be allowed to carry and shoot what ever we want . Could do this before the 1934 machinegun crap. Give the Govt a inch and they turn it in to a express way and start steam rolling over your rights.

 

[Beatnik]

THANK YOU, MICHAEL T, for finally stating the obvious.

If we spent as much time working to get this **** off the books as we do discussing it, then it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Offwhite]

unless there's a forum law enforcement team ready to swoop down

Holy crap if there is a forum LE team someone let me know, I am right there!

 

[Ron James]

But, could it not be one of the AK type pistols being sold now, Build on a virgin receiver and registered as a handgun? I think they are useless but illegal no, they are legal. And some people think they are a lot of fun, To each , their own. But they are not illegal , they are classified as a handgun. The same thing as the new Ruger 10-22 pistol, build on a virgin receiver and registered as a handgun, same Principe.

 

[B. Adams]

Sure, it could be one of those, but it's going to be classified as an AOW if it has less than a 16" barrel and a vertical foregrip.

Pistol with barrel <16" + vertical foregrip = AOW.
Rifle with barrel <16" + any/no foregrip = SBR.

If you had a "pistol" with a barrel longer than 16", you could probably get away with putting a vertical foregrip on it by calling it a "rifle."

In any case, here's some photos.

Here's an AK pistol:

Here's a vertical foregrip:

If you put the two together, you have an AOW. Case closed.

 

[Jim K]

My understanding of the law and the regulations is the same as B. Adams'. An AK pistol with a HORIZONTAL (standard) foregrip is NOT an AOW. If it were, those Browning .22 pistols with wood forestocks would be AOWs and they are not.

The gun is an AOW ONLY if it has a VERTICAL foregrip (i.e., a pistol grip ahead of the receiver).

IMHO, it is silly to point out to a gun show dealer that he is violating the law, then brag to all and sundry that you have done so. It is more than silly when you are wrong - it is "crawl in hole and pull in after you" time.

Jim

 

[poor_richard]

So you mean like the Romy G kits have, a second pistol type grip in the lower hand guard? That would have been a problem here in CA...

Justin

No, it had a foregrip in addition to the regular pistol grip.

Sounds like one of the AK pistols being released recently (top pic in post # 23). Not illegal, and sold as a pistol. I can get them at the my local, but have to register them as a pistol.

 

[Prince Yamato]

An AK pistol with a HORIZONTAL (standard) foregrip is NOT an AOW

The way I rationalized it was ATF sees horizontal foregrips as "Barrel Shrouds". Whereas the vertical foregrip is a second pistol grip. Technically you can hold an AK pistol with one hand. The "barrel shroud" (horizontal foregrip) is what enables you to not burn your hands by steadying it.

I think the Kel-Tec PLR-16 pistol is the one I most often see in illegal AOW configuration. With the "barrel shroud", it just begs to be unwittingly made into an AOW. I've seen one or two guys at gun shows holding the guns like they're going to add a forward pistol grip to it. I tell them about AOWs and they look at me like I'm spouting conspiracy theory.

 

[Andrewsky]

I wonder how many people have attached vertical fore-grips to their Glock 21SFs.