Illegal Interstate Handgun Sales

[orygunmike]

I ask this question strictly out of curiosity and a desire to understand the intricacies of the system, *not* because I plan on breaking the law.

I just purchased a G23 I found at an online auction site. The seller is in Washington, I'm in Oregon.

I called the seller to arrange the logistics of the transaction. He asked if I planned on being in his area in the near future because then I would be able to avoid shipping and FFL fees. I told him I preferred him to ship and to go thru the FFL route and that saving $50 wasn't worth a felony arrest. The transaction is in process and it looks like it will go smoothly.

Here is my question: If a person was to do a face-to-face *interstate* sale of a handgun, how would the authorities know?

 

[Gunfyter]

They wouldn't initailly. If, the gun were to be stolen, you would have some major explaining to do if you reported it to the police. And, if the stolen gun were to be used in a crime it could come back to haunt the original owner and then you. BAD IDEA. You're doing the right thing.

 

[Sam Adams]

I agree with Gunfyter, it just isn't worth it to play games for the few dollars (or even the whole cost of the gun, for that matter). You did the right thing.

Next time, though, buy a gun from someone locally. Then there's no paper trail, which is perfectly legal (in most states, I don't know about WA), and you save on the FFL fees and the time to go there and fill out the form, etc.

 

[orygunmike]

I would have loved to buy locally...

I spent four months trying to locate a 2nd generation G23...but finally gave up and went out of state...

Perhaps I'll be luckier my next purchase...

now to decide....Sig 229...Sig 239....CZ 75B...or CZ P-01...

decisions...decisions...

 

[popeye]

Question: I can legally sell a gun to an Illinois FFL holder (I live in Indiana ) if I bring a potential buyer with me that lives in Illinois and he then buys that gun, am I breaking the law? Never done it, but just wondering if I could save $25 for orygunmike. Using one FFL innstead of two. Maybe this is a "straw purchase"?

 

[g56]

You gave the correct answer to the question, always go the legal route, do it right and you have nothing to worry about.

Among other things to consider, it could have been a sting.

 

[EOD Guy]

Question: I can legally sell a gun to an Illinois FFL holder (I live in Indiana ) if I bring a potential buyer with me that lives in Illinois and he then buys that gun, am I breaking the law? Never done it, but just wondering if I could save $25 for orygunmike. Using one FFL innstead of two. Maybe this is a "straw purchase"?

Perfectly legal. The handgun is transferred to an Illinois resident by an Illinois dealer who follows all the applicable state and federal laws. The dealer doesn't actually buy the gun. He just handles the transfer.

Also, even if you ship the gun to the dealer, only one FFL is required.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I've never seen anything about interstate sales of hand guns in the Second Amendment.

 

[bubbygator]

Try looking in BATF regulations instead. Look on their website at FAQ's, items B1 & B2.

 

[Zach S]

Also, even if you ship the gun to the dealer, only one FFL is required.

However, due to a recent thread I'd suggest the buyer or seller to contact the FFL to make sure he/she will accept a firearm shipped by an indiviual...

 

[WT]

A little birdie told me to watch out for those interstate handgun sales. The BATFE idiots just love to set up people. Much easier to arrest a good American than a muslim terrorist.

 

[EOD Guy]

However, due to a recent thread I'd suggest the buyer or seller to contact the FFL to make sure he/she will accept a firearm shipped by an indiviual...

Very good advice, since some dealers won't accept shipments from nonlicensees.

 

[GD]

It has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment. It is an Interstate Commerce ruling which is in the Constitution. We gave our government the right to regulate interstate commerce. As much as I don't like it either, it is within the govs realm to regulate the interstate trade of firearms as it is with any item.

 

[LynnKCircle]

When selling any gun, it's a good idea to get a copy of the buyer's driver's license. That way if the gun turns up in the hands of a juvenile felon, you've covered your butt by showing you sold it to an adult.

I've met some people who believe on principle they should never show anyone any identification. I even bought a gun from someone like that who refused to see my ID. But personally, I think it's a good way to get your butt in a sling for no good reason

 

[The Plainsman]

Wait a minute....

Strictly federal (no state laws), but I'm reasonably certain that gun owners in adjoining states can legally buy and sell guns to one another without going through an FFL. If the seller was in Montana, it would illegal, but in Washington, Idaho, California, (and Utah? No US map handy.), there should be no problem. If I'm wrong, I know several people who are in violation by buying and selling guns between folks in Kansas and Missouri.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here.

 

[Jax]

Plainsman,

Yes and no...

The short version:

Federal law does not restrict non-NFA long arm purchases interstate, only handgun.

The long version:

Per Federal law, as a Kansan, you can come down to Texas and purchase a rifle or shotgun, from a private party or FFL, without restriction, assuming the long arm in question is legal for you to own back home.

As a non-Texan, you may not purchase a handgun here, of any kind, from any one, without having it transferred to you via an FFL in your home state.

You also may not legally purchase a handgun from some one in a neighboring state for the same reason. You may only purchase a handgun within your home state.

There are some minor exceptions to the above, FFL's can purchase (not sell) handguns face-to-face out of state for example, but that generally covers it.

State law may place additional restrictions on how firearm transactions must be handled. You'll have to find out what those are for Kansas.

Jax

 

[MrPhil]

Orygunmike - I've found my chances of finding a particular gun have increased a bunch since I started shooting IDPA and other organized events. I mention I'm looking for a certain fire arm and "magically", an opportunity arises. I've bought and sold several guns this way. Nice and legal. Give it a try. You'll probably have fun, too. - Phil

 

[EOD Guy]

Plainsman,

Yes and no...

The short version:

Federal law does not restrict non-NFA long arm purchases interstate, only handgun.

The long version:

Per Federal law, as a Kansan, you can come down to Texas and purchase a rifle or shotgun, from a private party or FFL, without restriction, assuming the long arm in question is legal for you to own back home.

As a non-Texan, you may not purchase a handgun here, of any kind, from any one, without having it transferred to you via an FFL in your home state.

You also may not legally purchase a handgun from some one in a neighboring state for the same reason. You may only purchase a handgun within your home state.

There are some minor exceptions to the above, FFL's can purchase (not sell) handguns face-to-face out of state for example, but that generally covers it.

State law may place additional restrictions on how firearm transactions must be handled. You'll have to find out what those are for Kansas.

Jax

Sorry, but you are incorrect. Interstate sales between unlicensed individuals who are residents of different states are forbidden by Federal law unless the transfer in handled by a licensee in the purchaser's home state. It doesn't matter if the sale is face to face or handled through the internet, it is still illegal.

An unlicensed individual may purchase a rifle or shotgun outside of his home state if he purchases it from an FFL dealer and if the transaction is legal in both his home state and the state of purchase. Interstate private party sales without an FFL are not legal.

 

[Jax]

EOD Guy,

News to me. I'll read up on it. Thanks for the correction.

I do *try* to not give out incorrect info - I may have flubbed on this one.

Jax

 

[45Badger]

News to me and the local BATFE office also. Just sold a long gun to adjoining state resident. AOK by both state laws and BATFE.

 

[orygunmike]

IDPA/IPSC Connections

Mr. Phil....

I have thought of this myself...and have been contemplating making the leap into IPSC for about a year now. As you say, along with what I think would be a ton-o-fun, the connections into the used gun market would be a real nice bonus.

 

[EOD Guy]

News to me and the local BATFE office also. Just sold a long gun to adjoining state resident. AOK by both state laws and BATFE.

I am very surprised that anyone in any BATFE office would say it was ok. Here is the applicable part of the regulation;


TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C--Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or
deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows
or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That
the provisions of this section:
(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of
a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is
permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of
his residence; and
(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person
for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991; 57 FR 1205, Jan. 10, 1992]

 

[Zach S]

Very good advice, since some dealers won't accept shipments from nonlicensees.

Thank J/Tharg! If not for his thread, I wouldnt have thought of it.