Illegal to own a gun in Wilmette, IL
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jimpeel
Member
N3rday
SCotUS (or SCOTUS) = Supreme Court of the United States. Also known as USSC United States Supreme Court .
SCotUS (or SCOTUS) = Supreme Court of the United States. Also known as USSC United States Supreme Court .
4570Rick
Member
For over half a decade, schools have been in decline, programming instead of educating. Then we elect these mindless muppets and this is the result.
clubsoda22
member
According to a post in the "general gun discussions" forum, this is not a law, but a policy set by a Homeowners Association.
Orthonym
Member
Wait a minute!
I thought the main argument for passing the 14th amendment was to apply the 2nd amendment to the states!I seem to recall reading arguments to that effect,by Congressmen debating the Amendment, quoted in a book I can't lay my hands on right this moment.Did not the U.S. Congress worry about the former slaves not being able to defend themselves against their former masters without good weapons? I write as a Southerner; the Feds were right in this case - a free citizen is a free citizen, and may and must arm himself, be he white or black, regardless of "previous condition of servitude".
I'm going off to find my printed authorities now.
I thought the main argument for passing the 14th amendment was to apply the 2nd amendment to the states!I seem to recall reading arguments to that effect,by Congressmen debating the Amendment, quoted in a book I can't lay my hands on right this moment.Did not the U.S. Congress worry about the former slaves not being able to defend themselves against their former masters without good weapons? I write as a Southerner; the Feds were right in this case - a free citizen is a free citizen, and may and must arm himself, be he white or black, regardless of "previous condition of servitude".
I'm going off to find my printed authorities now.
Orthonym
Member
Ah! Found the book!
It's "Safeguarding Liberty - the Constitution and Citizen Militias" edited by Larry Pratt, published by Legacy Communications, Franklin, Tennessee, 1995, ISBN 1-880692-18-X. The book is a collection of essays,some right scholarly, some less so.
The one I have in mind starts on page 135 of the book, and its title is "The Second Amendment: Toward an Afro-American Reconsideration." It's a SERIOUSLY scholarly essay; some of the pages are 80% footnotes and 20% text.(my guess)
This essay is by Robert J. Cottrol and Raymond T. Diamond.
At the top of page 174 in this book, we have
"The efforts to disarm the freedmen were in the background when the 39th Congress debated the Fourteenth Amendment, and played an important part in convincing the 39th Congress that traditional notions concerning federalism and individual rights needed to change. While a full exploration of the incorporation controversy is beyond the scope of this article, it should be noted that Jonathan Bingham, author of the Fourteenth Amendment's Privileges or Immunities Clause, clearly stated that it applied the Bill of Rights to the states. Others shared that same understanding."
It's "Safeguarding Liberty - the Constitution and Citizen Militias" edited by Larry Pratt, published by Legacy Communications, Franklin, Tennessee, 1995, ISBN 1-880692-18-X. The book is a collection of essays,some right scholarly, some less so.
The one I have in mind starts on page 135 of the book, and its title is "The Second Amendment: Toward an Afro-American Reconsideration." It's a SERIOUSLY scholarly essay; some of the pages are 80% footnotes and 20% text.(my guess)
This essay is by Robert J. Cottrol and Raymond T. Diamond.
At the top of page 174 in this book, we have
"The efforts to disarm the freedmen were in the background when the 39th Congress debated the Fourteenth Amendment, and played an important part in convincing the 39th Congress that traditional notions concerning federalism and individual rights needed to change. While a full exploration of the incorporation controversy is beyond the scope of this article, it should be noted that Jonathan Bingham, author of the Fourteenth Amendment's Privileges or Immunities Clause, clearly stated that it applied the Bill of Rights to the states. Others shared that same understanding."
Langenator
Member
Orthonym-that's exactly the point, to include actual quotes from the authors (it's occasionally useful that everything Congress does or says gets recorded), that would have to be brought up in any case applying 2A to the states via 14A. As was stated by Justice Ginsburg during her confirmation hearings, there is no precedent incorporating the 2nd the way the rest of the BoR has been, despite the intent of it's authors.
Ginsburg is quoted in the footnotes of "Supreme Court Gun Cases" by Kopel, pg 89.
Kopel also mentions that the debates on the enabling legislation for the Freedmen's Bureau, which passed in the same time frame as the 14th, contain references to insuring the RKBA for the newly freed blacks.
Ginsburg is quoted in the footnotes of "Supreme Court Gun Cases" by Kopel, pg 89.
Kopel also mentions that the debates on the enabling legislation for the Freedmen's Bureau, which passed in the same time frame as the 14th, contain references to insuring the RKBA for the newly freed blacks.
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
I wish. The only orgs I could see doing that are ConcealCarry Inc. or the Champaign County Rifle Association, neither of which has anything approaching the amount of money needed to get started.
Anyway, I'm going to merge as many Wilmette threads as I can find. Stand by. . . . . . ..
Ah, that's better. Enjoy.
Anyway, I'm going to merge as many Wilmette threads as I can find. Stand by. . . . . . ..
Ah, that's better. Enjoy.
jimpeel
Member
The thread is here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56904
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
Well, that's not true. It's a city ordinance.
jimpeel
Member
That's what I thought. CNN, however, apparently had a segment on HOA restrictions that sounded like this case; according to the threadparent of the other thread.
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
Yeah, I hate to squash the other thread by bringing it up there. They're having such a good time talking about HOAs over there. 
And after all, we don't really know for sure that the threads are about the same cases. Could be two.
And after all, we don't really know for sure that the threads are about the same cases. Could be two.
Update: Despite some fuzzy language about whether the home defender would be charged in this case, they've apparently made the decision...not the right one.
Link: http://www.pioneerlocal.com/cgi-bin/ppo-story/localnews/current/wn/01-08-04-198113.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wilmette man faces charges after shooting
BY KEN GOZE
STAFF WRITER
A Wilmette homeowner who shot and wounded an intruder succeeded in driving the burglar out of his house and may have ended a series of cat burglaries on the village's east side, but this week he faces weapons charges that include a local ordinance banning handgun possession.
The incident also could lead village trustees to revisit an issue which has received relatively little attention since board members passed the handgun ban nearly 15 years ago in the wake of the Laurie Dann school shootings.
Morio L. Billings, 31, was hospitalized at St. Francis Hospital in Evanston Dec. 29, after he fled the Linden Avenue neighborhood with two bullet wounds and a stolen sport utility vehicle police said he had stolen from the same house the night before.
After a Tuesday bond hearing, he was transferred to Cook County Jail, where he was held on a $3 million bond charged with two counts of residential burglary and one count of possession of a stolen motor vehicle.
The homeowner and victim of the break-in, 54-year-old Hale DeMar, will not face charges in the shooting, which prosecutors determined was justified.
But police on Tuesday said they planned to charge him with failing to have a current Firearm Owners Identification Card, a misdemeanor, and with violating Wilmette's 1989 handgun ordinance, which carries a fine of up to $750 and permanent loss of the weapons. He is to appear in court on both charges Feb. 6.
Police said they confiscated the .38-caliber revolver used in the shooting as well as a .380 automatic pistol from the home. They said DeMar had a FOID card but that it expired in 1988.
Although statements in the days after the incident seemed to indicate that police might not press the ordinance issue in the case, police said they were not wavering on the issue but waiting for facts and dealing with the more immediate issues surrounding the burglary suspect.
"It was not due to indecision but a desire to have complete information before coming to conclusions. Our strategy was to address the forcible felony charges first," said Police Chief George Carpenter.
Burglary history
Police said Billings has an extensive criminal history and came to the Chicago area from Coon Rapids, Minn. On the night before the shooting, he entered DeMar's house near the Bahai Temple by reaching through a dog door to open a deadbolt lock. At that time, police said he took a small television and a set of keys to the house and a BMV sports utility vehicle, which he used to flee the area.
When DeMar discovered and reported that crime early the next day, he was not able to get the locks changed and had his 8-year-old daughter and 10-year-old son stay in his upstairs room.
Shortly before 10:30 p.m., police said, Billings returned to the home, apparently seeking a computer monitor he believed to be a high-end flat screen television. When he used the stolen keys to open a kitchen door, DeMar was alerted by an alarm panel near his bedroom and went downstairs armed with the revolver.
He found himself across from a man masked with a hat and bandanna. Instead of leaving through the nearby door, police said Billings ran farther into the house in a circuitous motion.
At that point DeMar fired four of the six bullets in the gun. Billings was struck twice, once in the shoulder and once in the leg. After crashing through a window and running back to the stolen SUV, he drove through a yard and knocked down two fences to escape. Wilmette police found Billings shortly after that when St. Francis Hospital reported the arrival of a man seeking treatment for gunshot wounds. Billings' injuries were not considered life-threatening, but the bullet that struck his shoulder caused extensive damage lower in his arm.
Since mid-October, police have been investigating a pattern of cat burglaries in the area, break-ins or attempts by someone who knows or believes the home to be occupied at the time.
Shooter reacts
DeMar, who owns the Oak Tree Restaurant in Chicago, said he could not comment on specifics of the case but said he is not someone who wanted a confrontation.
"I don't think I acted any differently than a lot of people would have with two small children in the house. I'm a strong believer in the Second Amendment. I'm not a criminal, I'm a 55-year-old businessman," DeMar said.
"I think it's strange you're allowed to have a shotgun or semi-automatic rifle, but those aren't things you'd reach for when somebody breaks in," he said. "Those aren't things I'd have in the house."
Legal aspects aside, Carpenter said keeping handguns in a home and confronting intruders is a dangerous gamble
"We want to give good information to Wilmette residents about what we advise them to do if they ever find themselves in this situation. Lock the bedroom door and call 911. Protect yourselves and your children first," Carpenter said.
By confronting a burglar, homeowners take the risk of being overpowered or surprised by more than one intruder or by someone who is better armed, faster or just lucky.
Handgun dangers
The homeowner can end up wounded or killed in a struggle over their own weapon, Carpenter warned. Out of confusion and fear, some people trying to defend their home have accidentally shot their own family members returning late at night.
"These things go wrong in so many ways," Carpenter said.
Beyond the immediate danger of a struggle, Carpenter said a handgun in the home can facilitate suicides, accidental shootings and can turn domestic arguments into homicides.
The choice of burglary alarm also affects the outcome of incidents such as this one, Carpenter said. The alarm notified DeMar of the intrusion, but a loud audible alarm usually sends burglars running. As with many home systems, the alarm goes first to a remote monitoring center before police are notified. That delay can run as long as 10 minutes and in this case gave Billings enough time to get into a confrontation, run back to a stolen vehicle and begin his escape before police learned there was a problem. Some systems notify the Police Department directly.
It's not clear whether the incident will lead to calls to change or repeal the handgun ordinance, but it is possible that trustees will review the law or seek to remind people that it's still on the books and being enforced. Wilmette is one of a few suburbs to enact local handgun bans, including Morton Grove and Oak Park.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comment: Chief Carpenter must have studied his HCI/MMM brochures before issuing his statement
The rest of the article opens a window of opportunity, however, on possible review or repeal of the village ordinance. Maybe some local group like ISRA will carry the ball?
Link: http://www.pioneerlocal.com/cgi-bin/ppo-story/localnews/current/wn/01-08-04-198113.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wilmette man faces charges after shooting
BY KEN GOZE
STAFF WRITER
A Wilmette homeowner who shot and wounded an intruder succeeded in driving the burglar out of his house and may have ended a series of cat burglaries on the village's east side, but this week he faces weapons charges that include a local ordinance banning handgun possession.
The incident also could lead village trustees to revisit an issue which has received relatively little attention since board members passed the handgun ban nearly 15 years ago in the wake of the Laurie Dann school shootings.
Morio L. Billings, 31, was hospitalized at St. Francis Hospital in Evanston Dec. 29, after he fled the Linden Avenue neighborhood with two bullet wounds and a stolen sport utility vehicle police said he had stolen from the same house the night before.
After a Tuesday bond hearing, he was transferred to Cook County Jail, where he was held on a $3 million bond charged with two counts of residential burglary and one count of possession of a stolen motor vehicle.
The homeowner and victim of the break-in, 54-year-old Hale DeMar, will not face charges in the shooting, which prosecutors determined was justified.
But police on Tuesday said they planned to charge him with failing to have a current Firearm Owners Identification Card, a misdemeanor, and with violating Wilmette's 1989 handgun ordinance, which carries a fine of up to $750 and permanent loss of the weapons. He is to appear in court on both charges Feb. 6.
Police said they confiscated the .38-caliber revolver used in the shooting as well as a .380 automatic pistol from the home. They said DeMar had a FOID card but that it expired in 1988.
Although statements in the days after the incident seemed to indicate that police might not press the ordinance issue in the case, police said they were not wavering on the issue but waiting for facts and dealing with the more immediate issues surrounding the burglary suspect.
"It was not due to indecision but a desire to have complete information before coming to conclusions. Our strategy was to address the forcible felony charges first," said Police Chief George Carpenter.
Burglary history
Police said Billings has an extensive criminal history and came to the Chicago area from Coon Rapids, Minn. On the night before the shooting, he entered DeMar's house near the Bahai Temple by reaching through a dog door to open a deadbolt lock. At that time, police said he took a small television and a set of keys to the house and a BMV sports utility vehicle, which he used to flee the area.
When DeMar discovered and reported that crime early the next day, he was not able to get the locks changed and had his 8-year-old daughter and 10-year-old son stay in his upstairs room.
Shortly before 10:30 p.m., police said, Billings returned to the home, apparently seeking a computer monitor he believed to be a high-end flat screen television. When he used the stolen keys to open a kitchen door, DeMar was alerted by an alarm panel near his bedroom and went downstairs armed with the revolver.
He found himself across from a man masked with a hat and bandanna. Instead of leaving through the nearby door, police said Billings ran farther into the house in a circuitous motion.
At that point DeMar fired four of the six bullets in the gun. Billings was struck twice, once in the shoulder and once in the leg. After crashing through a window and running back to the stolen SUV, he drove through a yard and knocked down two fences to escape. Wilmette police found Billings shortly after that when St. Francis Hospital reported the arrival of a man seeking treatment for gunshot wounds. Billings' injuries were not considered life-threatening, but the bullet that struck his shoulder caused extensive damage lower in his arm.
Since mid-October, police have been investigating a pattern of cat burglaries in the area, break-ins or attempts by someone who knows or believes the home to be occupied at the time.
Shooter reacts
DeMar, who owns the Oak Tree Restaurant in Chicago, said he could not comment on specifics of the case but said he is not someone who wanted a confrontation.
"I don't think I acted any differently than a lot of people would have with two small children in the house. I'm a strong believer in the Second Amendment. I'm not a criminal, I'm a 55-year-old businessman," DeMar said.
"I think it's strange you're allowed to have a shotgun or semi-automatic rifle, but those aren't things you'd reach for when somebody breaks in," he said. "Those aren't things I'd have in the house."
Legal aspects aside, Carpenter said keeping handguns in a home and confronting intruders is a dangerous gamble
"We want to give good information to Wilmette residents about what we advise them to do if they ever find themselves in this situation. Lock the bedroom door and call 911. Protect yourselves and your children first," Carpenter said.
By confronting a burglar, homeowners take the risk of being overpowered or surprised by more than one intruder or by someone who is better armed, faster or just lucky.
Handgun dangers
The homeowner can end up wounded or killed in a struggle over their own weapon, Carpenter warned. Out of confusion and fear, some people trying to defend their home have accidentally shot their own family members returning late at night.
"These things go wrong in so many ways," Carpenter said.
Beyond the immediate danger of a struggle, Carpenter said a handgun in the home can facilitate suicides, accidental shootings and can turn domestic arguments into homicides.
The choice of burglary alarm also affects the outcome of incidents such as this one, Carpenter said. The alarm notified DeMar of the intrusion, but a loud audible alarm usually sends burglars running. As with many home systems, the alarm goes first to a remote monitoring center before police are notified. That delay can run as long as 10 minutes and in this case gave Billings enough time to get into a confrontation, run back to a stolen vehicle and begin his escape before police learned there was a problem. Some systems notify the Police Department directly.
It's not clear whether the incident will lead to calls to change or repeal the handgun ordinance, but it is possible that trustees will review the law or seek to remind people that it's still on the books and being enforced. Wilmette is one of a few suburbs to enact local handgun bans, including Morton Grove and Oak Park.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comment: Chief Carpenter must have studied his HCI/MMM brochures before issuing his statement
The rest of the article opens a window of opportunity, however, on possible review or repeal of the village ordinance. Maybe some local group like ISRA will carry the ball?
jimpeel
Member
Welcome to his world of "maybe", "might have" and "could have"
In your world, Mr. Carpenter, the police can get there within minutes; but seldom do.
Why are you taking it upon yourself to attempt to protect people from themselves without their asking; but you deny any duty to protect me when I ask for protection and you fail to provide it?
He did. He grabbed a handgun and procted himself and his children first.
In your world, Mr. Carpenter, the police can get there within minutes; but seldom do.
Does that mean that noone would ever use a rifle or shotgun to commit suicide? Are the suicides that are committed by all other means a measure of the success of the handgun ban?
Why are you taking it upon yourself to attempt to protect people from themselves without their asking; but you deny any duty to protect me when I ask for protection and you fail to provide it?
Interesting Letters to the Editor
Chicago Sun-Times 01/13/04:
Letters to the Editor
Chicago Sun-Times
-----
In no position to judge
It's real easy for Wilmette Chief of Police George Carpenter to say Wilmette homes are much safer without a handgun in defending the arrest of Hale DeMar for shooting a home invader [''Man who shot intruder arrested,'' news story, Jan. 9] since because of his job, he is allowed to have a gun in his home. That was about the most stupid, political statement I have ever heard, and I am a Chicago police officer.
This entire country's foundation is based on freedom. And when a man cannot legally defend his family from an intruder, it's time not only to rid ourselves of the intruders but the politicians and those who defend their politically based jobs on such stupid and unconstitutional laws.
Mark Severino,
Jefferson Park
-----
Don't punish homeowner
If the man defending his family and his home from a criminal whose intent was unknown -- maybe burglary, maybe murder, maybe rape -- is going to be charged for having a gun, here's what I hope happens:
The judge orders him to pay a fine of $1, and the mayor of the town pays it for him. Anything beyond that should bring out every constitutional lawyer available and bring this case to national attention. The NRA should mobilize its forces on the town's front steps and have its lawyers sue Wilmette broke. The ACLU should mount its finest team of defense lawyers to aid this hero -- free. The governor should immediately offer a pardon and expunge from this man's record any conviction for anything relating to this travesty.
I'd be willing to bet that lots of people in Wilmette have guns, and if they didn't, they do now.
M. P. O'Neill,
East Side
-----
Nothing to show for gun ban
The editorial [''Wilmette's gun law dilemma,'' Jan. 5] on Wilmette's gun laws just drips with hypocrisy. Chicago made owning a handgun illegal more than two decades ago, and it has had zero effect on crime or gun violence. In fact, once again Chicago recaptured the title of ''murder capital.''
Former residents like myself long ago left the city and live where both our families and constitutional rights are safe.
Brian Williams,
Harwood Heights
-----
Better safe than sorry
What is important is the fact that the intruder the Wilmette homeowner shot was burglarizing that home for the second time. Why not? The burglar felt safe because of Wilmette's ordinance banning gun ownership within the village.
So the homeowner was forced to break the law to protect his family.
Bruce Monstovich,
Frankfort
Chicago Sun-Times 01/13/04:
Letters to the Editor
Chicago Sun-Times
-----
In no position to judge
It's real easy for Wilmette Chief of Police George Carpenter to say Wilmette homes are much safer without a handgun in defending the arrest of Hale DeMar for shooting a home invader [''Man who shot intruder arrested,'' news story, Jan. 9] since because of his job, he is allowed to have a gun in his home. That was about the most stupid, political statement I have ever heard, and I am a Chicago police officer.
This entire country's foundation is based on freedom. And when a man cannot legally defend his family from an intruder, it's time not only to rid ourselves of the intruders but the politicians and those who defend their politically based jobs on such stupid and unconstitutional laws.
Mark Severino,
Jefferson Park
-----
Don't punish homeowner
If the man defending his family and his home from a criminal whose intent was unknown -- maybe burglary, maybe murder, maybe rape -- is going to be charged for having a gun, here's what I hope happens:
The judge orders him to pay a fine of $1, and the mayor of the town pays it for him. Anything beyond that should bring out every constitutional lawyer available and bring this case to national attention. The NRA should mobilize its forces on the town's front steps and have its lawyers sue Wilmette broke. The ACLU should mount its finest team of defense lawyers to aid this hero -- free. The governor should immediately offer a pardon and expunge from this man's record any conviction for anything relating to this travesty.
I'd be willing to bet that lots of people in Wilmette have guns, and if they didn't, they do now.
M. P. O'Neill,
East Side
-----
Nothing to show for gun ban
The editorial [''Wilmette's gun law dilemma,'' Jan. 5] on Wilmette's gun laws just drips with hypocrisy. Chicago made owning a handgun illegal more than two decades ago, and it has had zero effect on crime or gun violence. In fact, once again Chicago recaptured the title of ''murder capital.''
Former residents like myself long ago left the city and live where both our families and constitutional rights are safe.
Brian Williams,
Harwood Heights
-----
Better safe than sorry
What is important is the fact that the intruder the Wilmette homeowner shot was burglarizing that home for the second time. Why not? The burglar felt safe because of Wilmette's ordinance banning gun ownership within the village.
So the homeowner was forced to break the law to protect his family.
Bruce Monstovich,
Frankfort
artherd
member
States can make laws that infringe upon the Second Ammendment?
Really?
What about the First?
mmmm?
Really?
What about the First?
mmmm?
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