Illegal to own a gun without a serial number?
- Thread starter FIVETWOSEVEN
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deadin
Member
CoRoMo is right, these 60% - 80% "kits" are available. I found one place in Montana that sells them and only wants an ounce of gold (literally!) for them.
(or $1000.00 if you insist in paying with Federal Reserve Notes. That's for the "kit". Just the frame is $300)
That seems pretty steep for the pleasure of building your own unless you have a reason to own an unnumbered gun. (You can get a finished Caspian frame from Brownells for $182.99)
So, there are a couple of loopholes in the "no serial = illegal" statement. There are usually "loopholes" in most everything, but just aren't feasible for most of us.
But FAIAP a post 1968 or an earlier gun that was manufactured with a serial and currently doesn't have one will more than likely bring you grief if you are found with it. You will probably, at least, have to make your argument before a judge. I guess if you enjoy this sort of thing, why not?
Th OP posed a good question concerning States or other places that require registration. I have no idea how they would see it. As for selling one at a later date, it's my understanding that the frame will have to be numbered and have the makers name added. (Or is there another "loophole"?)
(or $1000.00 if you insist in paying with Federal Reserve Notes. That's for the "kit". Just the frame is $300)
That seems pretty steep for the pleasure of building your own unless you have a reason to own an unnumbered gun. (You can get a finished Caspian frame from Brownells for $182.99)
So, there are a couple of loopholes in the "no serial = illegal" statement. There are usually "loopholes" in most everything, but just aren't feasible for most of us.
But FAIAP a post 1968 or an earlier gun that was manufactured with a serial and currently doesn't have one will more than likely bring you grief if you are found with it. You will probably, at least, have to make your argument before a judge. I guess if you enjoy this sort of thing, why not?
Th OP posed a good question concerning States or other places that require registration. I have no idea how they would see it. As for selling one at a later date, it's my understanding that the frame will have to be numbered and have the makers name added. (Or is there another "loophole"?)
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
1. A gun which was legally produced before serial numbers were mandatory is a legal gun for possession and use.
2. A gun which was produced with a serial number and that serial number was defaced/removed and not restored may not be possessed.
3. As near as I can tell, a person can build and then possess/use a gun without a serial number if it is strictly for personal use and is not offered for sale or trade.
Fair summary?
2. A gun which was produced with a serial number and that serial number was defaced/removed and not restored may not be possessed.
3. As near as I can tell, a person can build and then possess/use a gun without a serial number if it is strictly for personal use and is not offered for sale or trade.
Fair summary?
highorder
Member
That's about the size of it, Art.
deadin
Member
Art,
That pretty well covers it. However, I have found that there are always "exceptions". I have also found that if the "exception" becomes, or is perceived, as a problem, the rules are usually changed.
Then the internet lawyers have to go looking for another "exception".
That pretty well covers it. However, I have found that there are always "exceptions". I have also found that if the "exception" becomes, or is perceived, as a problem, the rules are usually changed.
Then the internet lawyers have to go looking for another "exception".
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
These guns can NOT be legally sold without first inscribing a serial number, maker's name, and maker's location.
Check out this letter from the ATF: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BATFE-AMD-65-Manufacture-Marking-2004-11-09.pdf
Specifically on page 2 where it states:
So, if you see a home-built firearm for sale, or owned by anyone other than the original builder, and it doesn't have a serial number, manufacturer's name and location, it is contraband.
-Sam
HankB
Member
Without an exception for inheritance, this could be hard on the guy whose late father was a machinist.
(On the other hand, who's to tell who made it?)On the topic of serial numbers . . .
If I were somehow to come into possession of a firearm that had the serial number removed, altered, or defaced, I would be MUCH more inclined to destroy it rather than turn it in. Turning it in involves admission of possession of contraband, however briefly, and I wouldn't put it past some eager-beaver bureaucrat to give me a hard time even though I would have been " . . . trying to do the right thing."
The "acid etching" procedure confuses people. It is not at all like "acid etching" a metal surface to prepare it for finishing or painting. And it is NOT a method to find out the S/N and reapply it. It is a destructive laboratory method to "recover" a defaced number, and it destroys the frame in the process. They use extremely potent acids, Hydroflouric acid I think, and it eats away large pieces of the steel as it works. After a ballistics technician uses acid etching in this way the frame is unusable as anything except "evidence."
There are some online versions of ballistics laboratory manuals out there and if you google a bit you may find one that goes into the detail.
OP
OP
FIVETWOSEVEN
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I don't really have a gun like that, it just came to mind. is there a way to relegalize one?
It was mentioned above on how to legalize one...
Quote:
A non-FFL who makes firearms for personal use and without the intent to sell them doesn't have to put any markings on the gun. These guns can legally be transferred, sold, traded, gifted, inherited, etc.
These guns can NOT be legally sold without first inscribing a serial number, maker's name, and maker's location.
Check out this letter from the ATF: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BAT...2004-11-09.pdf
Specifically on page 2 where it states:
Quote:
...a non-licensee may make a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the rifle remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR 478.92 (formerly 178.92).
So, if you see a home-built firearm for sale, or owned by anyone other than the original builder, and it doesn't have a serial number, manufacturer's name and location, it is contraband.
-Sam
We have been selling the 80%'s in ar-15 and .308 type "paperweights" for a while with no problems. Currently I know of a company making the jigs and supplying bits for those to complete. Not sure what the cost is going to be but it won't cost an ounce of gold.
Quote:
A non-FFL who makes firearms for personal use and without the intent to sell them doesn't have to put any markings on the gun. These guns can legally be transferred, sold, traded, gifted, inherited, etc.
These guns can NOT be legally sold without first inscribing a serial number, maker's name, and maker's location.
Check out this letter from the ATF: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/BAT...2004-11-09.pdf
Specifically on page 2 where it states:
Quote:
...a non-licensee may make a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the rifle remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR 478.92 (formerly 178.92).
So, if you see a home-built firearm for sale, or owned by anyone other than the original builder, and it doesn't have a serial number, manufacturer's name and location, it is contraband.
-Sam
We have been selling the 80%'s in ar-15 and .308 type "paperweights" for a while with no problems. Currently I know of a company making the jigs and supplying bits for those to complete. Not sure what the cost is going to be but it won't cost an ounce of gold.
Gatorbait
member
Art Eatman, On serial number restoration. I have an M1911 apparently delivered to the Navy in 1912, like OLD. My brother and I have had it since 1947, but it was built long before the 1934 or 1968 law. Some idiot who must have stolen it scraped off (more like gouged off) the property of info and the seial number and whatever else was on the outside of the frame portion. Later, someone--probably the same cat--restored the serial number (71##) and the markings on the receiver beneath the slide seem to confirm its age. Anyhow, reading your post indicates that because of its age I don't have a legal problem, but it's been mutilated and no one will believe its age.
I guess I have a shooter. Gunsmith gave it an A+.
I guess I have a shooter. Gunsmith gave it an A+.
dogngun
Member
Before 1968, many shotguns and .22 rifles came from the factory
with no SN's. It is perfectly legal to own these guns - I have owned several.
mark
with no SN's. It is perfectly legal to own these guns - I have owned several.
mark
deadin
Member
Gatorbait,
If the serial was removed and later restamped, how do you know the one that's on it is correct? Yes, 71xx was a number associated with a USN production in 1912, but there were no other serials on the gun when manufactured, so what makes you believe that 71xx is a correct number and not just one someone made up.
In the early 1920s there was a serial stamped on the bottom of the slide on some commercial guns and then from serial 710001 to 114000 military guns were marked with a serial under the firing pin stop.
Even if yours was one of the few WW1 militarys that were returned to Colt for refinish in the early 1920s and had the military serial stamped on the bottom of the slide, there is no guarantee the the frame is original to the slide.
All I'm trying to say is that if a gun appears to have had its original serial removed, you could come to grief trying to prove that the "new" serial is legit.
If the serial was removed and later restamped, how do you know the one that's on it is correct? Yes, 71xx was a number associated with a USN production in 1912, but there were no other serials on the gun when manufactured, so what makes you believe that 71xx is a correct number and not just one someone made up.
In the early 1920s there was a serial stamped on the bottom of the slide on some commercial guns and then from serial 710001 to 114000 military guns were marked with a serial under the firing pin stop.
Even if yours was one of the few WW1 militarys that were returned to Colt for refinish in the early 1920s and had the military serial stamped on the bottom of the slide, there is no guarantee the the frame is original to the slide.
All I'm trying to say is that if a gun appears to have had its original serial removed, you could come to grief trying to prove that the "new" serial is legit.
TEDDY
Member
serial no.
the acid wont destroy the gun. I have used it on guns that have the maker worn off and it works.all you have to do is use it till the markings show.
I would not worry about a guns numbers unless you are an idiot and do something to call attention.
sarco was selling frames for under $25 some partly finished and some just castings.
the acid wont destroy the gun. I have used it on guns that have the maker worn off and it works.all you have to do is use it till the markings show.
I would not worry about a guns numbers unless you are an idiot and do something to call attention.
sarco was selling frames for under $25 some partly finished and some just castings.
jaysouth
Member
18USC 922(k)
Letter of the Law:
It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer,s serial number removed, obliterated or altered, and has at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
Additional remarks by ATFE:
Consequently, ATFE does not authorize anyone, including gunsmiths, to remove or relocate serial numbers for ANY purpose including refinishing, mounting sights, or fitting custom stocks or grips. It is irrelevant that you would remark the receiver with the original serial number.
My remarks:
This was in response to obtaining the proper form to notify the ATF that I wanted to checker the frontstrap of a BHP and move the serial number to a location above the right grip panel.
I was under the mistaken notion that I could move the serial number with the blessing of the ATFE. It won't happen.
Letter of the Law:
It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer,s serial number removed, obliterated or altered, and has at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
Additional remarks by ATFE:
Consequently, ATFE does not authorize anyone, including gunsmiths, to remove or relocate serial numbers for ANY purpose including refinishing, mounting sights, or fitting custom stocks or grips. It is irrelevant that you would remark the receiver with the original serial number.
My remarks:
This was in response to obtaining the proper form to notify the ATF that I wanted to checker the frontstrap of a BHP and move the serial number to a location above the right grip panel.
I was under the mistaken notion that I could move the serial number with the blessing of the ATFE. It won't happen.
Chuck Warner
Member
....
....Moving the serial number was a big issue in the early days of IPSC.Many guns had numbers obliterated due to scope mounting. You couldnt move them back then. dunno now.
Chuck
....Moving the serial number was a big issue in the early days of IPSC.Many guns had numbers obliterated due to scope mounting. You couldnt move them back then. dunno now.
Chuck
jaysouth
Member
Chuck Warner,
Check my post above:
"additional remarks by BATFE"
Looks pretty clear to me.
If anyone has a question about such matters, call the local BATFE office. They will refer you to the technical section in WVA. The folks that answer this phone are very knowledgable and seem to want to help. You don't have to give them your name or address.
If the OP had called them with this question, he would have gotten a straight answer from the folks who matter, not a lot of internet chatter and wild guesses.
I have called them on a number of occasions and been satisfied with their reponse, but not always happy with the answer.
If the response is unclear or ambiguous, get a name and mailing address. They will always give you a written response with appropriate statutory quotes.
Check my post above:
"additional remarks by BATFE"
Looks pretty clear to me.
If anyone has a question about such matters, call the local BATFE office. They will refer you to the technical section in WVA. The folks that answer this phone are very knowledgable and seem to want to help. You don't have to give them your name or address.
If the OP had called them with this question, he would have gotten a straight answer from the folks who matter, not a lot of internet chatter and wild guesses.
I have called them on a number of occasions and been satisfied with their reponse, but not always happy with the answer.
If the response is unclear or ambiguous, get a name and mailing address. They will always give you a written response with appropriate statutory quotes.
Chuck Warner
Member
....
....I appreciate the post. When I said I dont know, I was refering to very recent time, last couple of months? I have been a licensed manufacturer since the 90's when this wasnt clear.
I dont really need to re read the regs concerning it as I dont move them period.
Your post will be valuable to those considering it though
Chuck W
....I appreciate the post. When I said I dont know, I was refering to very recent time, last couple of months? I have been a licensed manufacturer since the 90's when this wasnt clear.
I dont really need to re read the regs concerning it as I dont move them period.
Your post will be valuable to those considering it though
Chuck W
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