I'm Betting This Won't Be Covered in The Senate Investigation

[El Tejon]

NN, oh, great, now you had to tell bounty about the SEALs shooting the bangers! Now he'll be wanting a Congressional inquiry on the ST little hunting trip and how the SEALs denied the bangers their civil right to loot and shoot at rescuers.

But, but the SEALs didn't kill the bangers quick enough! George Bush should have used The Force to choke the bangers.

The city was in utter chaos thanks to the moronic Mayor and his police department from Comedy Central's central casting. The feds came in and save the day, but instead of getting down on their knees and groveling in front of the men who saved their lives all they can do is whine that their miserable lives were not saved fast enough.

I cannot tolerate those who did absolutely nothing to prepare but sit on their sofas and eat are now daring to criticize those that saved them. Disgusting.

 

[bountyhunter]

Oh, I don't know. Probably for the same reason you're beating on this dead horse with your attitude.

restating the thread topic after it has been ignored by nearly every responder is "beating on a dead horse"?

OK, whatever.

BTW, you never answered the topic either which is why FEMA didn't do their job.

Just go back to claiming that since the mayor of NO is a bozo, it excuses FEMA from doing anything. Funny thing, even Bush gave up trying to use that dodge.

 

[bountyhunter]

Yea... The federal government should be able to save each state from whatever catastrophe it faces (earthquake, Hurricanes).

OK, if that is FEMA's charted mission (to let the state's burn) shouldn't that be in their own response plan?

The point of this thread.... which nobody has answered yet for obvious reasons..... is that FEMA did indeed have a plan and stated mission which is this:

1) The DOD is the first and only effective response for a major disaster.

2) That response will be made until it is shown that it is no longer needed.

PERIOD.

Now, go back to tap dancing about how the mayor didn't use the school buses, had a feud with the governor, whatever.... and completely ignore the point of the article:

FEMA had a very clear reponse plan and mission (primarily because of the debacle after hurricane Andrew) which called for immediate and proactive use of DOD resources for just such an event..... and yet, they did nothing.

This ain't rocket science.

 

[bountyhunter]

Didn't this Hurricane also hit Mississippi and Alabama ???

I guess there aren't any poor people in Gulfport, Biloxi or anywhere else in those states ??

Is George Bush screwing things up in those states also ??

Try watching the news. The locals down there have had some choice words for the admin and their "response".

One of the local sheriffs was furious, saying how it took days to get through to FEMA and when he finally did he asked why they never came... the answer he got was: "Since we never heard from you, we figured you must be all right."

Cheney was doing a camera face opp down there and some local yelled out:

"f--- you, Cheney!"

But the obvious point is that some cities were destroyed at other locations, but NO is the only city where they were under standing water for a week with about 60,000 people in "shelters" screaming for food while the FED's did nothing.

 

[bountyhunter]

I don't know that the military would have been all that useful during the first two days after Katrina.

I must admit, that statement surprised me. Literally dozens of critically ill patients sat on the tops of hospitals being bagged by hand waiting for rescue helos to arrive... and they died waiting.

People were stranded on roofs and attics as they waited for the small boats to come get them, although the Coast Guard had a few choppers in the area conducting rescues.

People in the "shelters" desperately needed water and food.

You really have no clue what the military could have done?

How about this (look what they are doing today and you will have your answer):

Stage food, water, and troops near the affected area. When the storm passes, get food, water, and medical aid in as soon as the roads can be passed. Use helicopters to get to critical people.

Who do you think has more helicopters than anybody else? Or, we used to before they all got sent to Iraq, but DOD still has a bunch here.

 

[bountyhunter]

Posse commitatus prevents sending troops in. Some have been claiming that it only covers LE authority, but for the past 40 years, any activity where the military must evacuate large numbers of people (i.e. crowd control) would be considered LE duty.

Uh-HUH. And I assume a convoy of flatbeds loaded with MRE's and water hauled into the dome and civic center and dropped off would also be "LE duty".

You have got to be kidding.

Even assuming this ludicrous scenario was true (and our own troops are legally forbidden to haul in food and water to a state without prior consent), would you care to offer up a reason why FEMA had not staged any such resources or people to carry them so that they could be deployed after "consent" was obtained?

Or does it make more sense to watch a CAT5 hurricane slam into a coastline and say:

"Well..... if they need help, they'll call..."

Because that is EXACTLY what FEMA did.

 

[scottgun]

To directly answer your question, the rescue took longer than expected becuase they were being shot at. The Feds went in prepared to rescue people, not go to war.

 

[bountyhunter]

But we won't have the sorts of idiocies that Louisiana had.

Ya think?

The president's home state is going to get first class response time in a pinch?

 

[Henry Bowman]

would you care to offer up a reason why FEMA had not staged any such resources or people to carry them so that they could be deployed after "consent" was obtained?

That is not what FEMA does (or is supposed to do). FEMA did stage its administrative people and supplies, but a flood occured in NO which delayed arrival in some areas and changed priorities. The Red Cross and Salvation Army (and others) did stage resources. In fact they moved in to w/in 1 mile of where all those desperate 60,000 were being held captive, but were denied access by local authorities.*

*Or is that just some right wing conspiracy rumor?

 

[Henry Bowman]

The president's home state is going to get first class response time in a pinch?

No doubt the local authorities will not be so incompetent and obstructive. If nothing else, they learned from NO's mistakes. Now thet will be used as "evidence" of W's malice toward poor black people.

 

[Daniel T]

The president's home state is going to get first class response time in a pinch?

In the past, I've read some of your diatribes against Bush with a certain sympathy. This, however, shows me all I need to know about the depth of your character. Congrats.

 

[fallingblock]

+1, Daniel!

bounty sometimes 'can't see the forest for the Bush'

 

[TheEgg]

bounty sometimes 'can't see the forest for the Bush'

Yeah but you kind of have to admire someone with such a dedication to his cause.

 

[GunGoBoom]

Point of clarification. BH, you may be right. But if both the Pentagon, AND the rest of the fedgov, believe that the .mil is the only group able to effectively handle a large natural disaster (probably is true, given an actual no-nonsense command structure), then why on earth are we paying taxes to even HAVE an agency called FEMA? That's the more important question to me, and is one of 100,000 or so similar incongruities that explain why fed taxes are TOO HIGH!

 

[auschip]

The president's home state is going to get first class response time in a pinch?

You mean the state that already invited the guard in, and started a massive evacuation plan (that incidentally takes school buses and pick up people who don't have transportation of their own)? You know, the State and municipalities that take a plan and follow it instead of flying by the seat of their pants. Was that the State you were talking about?

 

[griz]

I would like to talk about the issues you have raised Bountyhunter. My problem is the quotes provided in your source appear pieced together, so I wanted to go to the origonal document to see the total quote in context. HERE is Homeland Security's National responce plan. I scaned through it, and searched with the following:
"Unless it can be credibly established that a mobilizing federal resource"
"that resource deploys"
and "catastrophic incident venue"

Nothing. I can't find it. Would you please show me where this comes from:

``Unless it can be credibly established that a mobilizing federal resource . . . is not needed at the catastrophic incident venue, that resource deploys,'' the plan says. The plan and a 2003 presidential directive put Chertoff, as homeland security secretary, in charge of coordinating the federal response.

I feel I need to know what the real plan is before I debate it.
Thanks, Griz

 

[Art Eatman]

bountyhunter, what seems to be lost in all this is that via Bush's early declaration, FEMA had begun staging assets before Katrina came onshore. I don't profess to know what "assets" might be. From what I got from the news as katrina was coming in, and during the immediate "hit", the feds were as ready as they thought they needed to be.

Then came all the evidence of failure on the part of the New Orleans administration, and Blanco's political maneuvering. This created two days of confusion as people tried to figure out what in heck was going on. Remember also that at first it was thought that New Orleans had lucked out--until the Pontchartrain levee broke.

Now, I have no argument against the utility of the military. None at all. But, the governors of Mississippi and Alabama, and the local people on the scene didn't seem to need heaps and gobs of outside people, in those first couple of days. My question, then, is how would you expect the military to get to New Orleans? Parachute? Those first two days, vehicular access was very limited. They had to do road-clearing in that first reach out of Baton Rouge before I-10 and the Airline Highway were open. When the bridges are wrecked and the roads are tree-blocked, trucks ain't gonna get there.

I dunno. Given the totality of events, I don't see where "Call out the Army!" would have been all that useful in those first few days. The real impediments to actual relief of people in trouble were the official-badge people on the ground in positions of authority.

Separately: The reason you can't make a freeway one-way "right now" is that you have to block every entry ramp in the now-wrong-way direction. That takes people and time...

Art

 

[Silver Bullet]

Here’s a list of the governors whose states were hit by Katrina or will be hit by Rita. Notice anything “interesting” ? Judging by a certain data point, I expect Texas to handle the Rita aftermath better than did Louisiana, as did Florida, Alabama, and Missippi.

FL: Jeb Bush (R)
AL: Bob Riley (R)
TX: Rick Perry (R)
LA: Kathleen Blanco (D)
MS: Haley Barbour (R)

 

[JohnBT]

Mother Nature doesn't like Republicans?

 

[Kim]

Bounty needs to get out more. He thinks it is soooo cool for a guy to holler FU at Cheney. What he doesn't tell you but I bet he knows is that this so called upstanding citizen is a physician(which shames my profession) that immediately declared himself at DU and had great acolades thrown his way.(Wonder how he knew of that great place of intellectual diversity) Why liberals think to curse is a virtue is beyond me. They act like immature teenagers or 3 year olds that have just discovered cuss words and they make up 50% of their vocacbulary. Like my momma or Arts Gramma would point out------------cussing just shows the ignorance of the person uttering such words.

 

[bountyhunter]

Now, I have no argument against the utility of the military. None at all. But, the governors of Mississippi and Alabama, and the local people on the scene didn't seem to need heaps and gobs of outside people, in those first couple of days.

But as far as I know, none of their cities were 80% under 20 feet of water forcing about 60,000 to reside at two small areas.

Apples and oranges.

My question, then, is how would you expect the military to get to New Orleans? Parachute? Those first two days, vehicular access was very limited.

Helicopter where necessary, high-axled trucks where passable. The news media had no problem getting in and rescue units from canada were down there before our people.

My point is: did any troops or trucks even TRY to transport food/water and then find they could not? Like I said, we saw video of trucks driving up to the dome, they just didn't have any supplies in them.

I don't see where "Call out the Army!" would have been all that useful in those first few days.

I think we both know there is plenty they could have done to airlift in (if necessary) food and water and temp shelters so some of those people could get out of that hell hole they were in.

And I also would point out no posse comatatus law prevented the USS Comfort from sailing from home port in Maryland the day the emergency was declared to be in position to accept airlifted patients from the hospitals.

That ship could have been used earlier, it's in open water and no permission was needed. Many lives could have been saved if those critical patients could have been evacuated earlier.

 

[bountyhunter]

Bounty needs to get out more. He thinks it is soooo cool for a guy to holler FU at Cheney. What he doesn't tell you but I bet he knows is that this so called upstanding citizen is a physician(which shames my profession) that immediately declared himself at DU and had great acolades thrown his way.

If you have a mindreading act, take it to Vegas, and don't lie about what I post. My answer was in regards to a question about what the locals down there think of the FED's efforts. I know some of the people who live there personally so I have a pretty good idea, but pointing out somebody got by security and was close enough to a microphone to say what many are thinking is a specific reply to the question raised.

I have no idea who said it, what he does for a living or anything else, but you could probably find about 200,000 down in south La who would say something similar but less colorfully worded.

 

[bountyhunter]

bountyhunter, what seems to be lost in all this is that via Bush's early declaration, FEMA had begun staging assets before Katrina came onshore.

Then why didn't any of them ever arrive?

Well, I guess it's all in the spin because what looks like it is getting lost to me is that about 60,000 people were living in third world hell for about three days with full color news coverage on every channel while the FED's did nothing but thumb twiddling.... and the CIC was so completely out of touch with reality he actually replied:

"What went wrong?"

When he was asked to comment on the lack of response, and then publicly applauded Brown's do-nothing response with a big attaboy on camera.

The news people could get in and out, other rescue people were getting in and out, the Coast Guard was conducting rescues with what resources they could muster....

but FED was missing in action.

 

[bountyhunter]

Point of clarification. BH, you may be right. But if both the Pentagon, AND the rest of the fedgov, believe that the .mil is the only group able to effectively handle a large natural disaster (probably is true, given an actual no-nonsense command structure), then why on earth are we paying taxes to even HAVE an agency called FEMA? That's the more important question to me, and is one of 100,000 or so similar incongruities that explain why fed taxes are TOO HIGH!

Good question.

 

[bountyhunter]

I would like to talk about the issues you have raised Bountyhunter. My problem is the quotes provided in your source appear pieced together, so I wanted to go to the origonal document to see the total quote in context.

I posted the article from the Mercury News in the first post with it's URL. The quotes I put up subsequently are from that article.