I'm Serious About This Question. Is Arming the Neighbors A Good Idea?

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I agree that it's a software issue... but that won't stop me from selling guns to otherwise disarmed people who realize they made a mistake in choosing to be disarmed. How else are we going to increase the number of armed people? They've got to have some way of starting out and that means they've got to buy, or be given, guns at some point.

I really don't understand why that happening in an emergency is being treated as a special case I guess.

If a neighbor (or friend, coworker, whatever) came to me today and said, "I'm 42 years old, I've never owned a gun, don't know anything about them, but I think my situation is such that I need one..." I wouldn't hesitate to educate him/her on firearms and, if I had one that was suitable, sell it to them. I would start with theory, safety rules, the fact that guns aren't magic... I'd probably break out the BB gun and walk them through shooting a bit, and then I'd sell them the gun and ammo. I'd comply with the laws of course but in my case that's fairly easy.

If that same person came to me during a disaster or emergency scenario the only real difference I see is that my "payment" may come in different forms. Money might be less important, security and social factors more important. Even so, it isn't really a "gift" because I would expect to receive some benefit in return. Maybe the benefit is that I can sleep more hours each night or my chance of being attacked in my sleep goes down. Maybe the benefit is food or shelter. Doesn't much matter.

Seems pretty uncomplicated to me. The risks are all there anyway (assume everyone is armed for your risk assessment). The moral issues are all there and were there for each and every gun owner past and present. It just really isn't a special case to me and I don't see why it is to you.
 
Ed Ames said:
tell us what you are really afraid of
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Thought I already did... I am not inherently trusting people I do not intimately know, nor any other people they very well may bring into the mix during a crisis situation with my registered and traceable firearms. They are very likely pissed off/stressed out people and therefore potentially unpredictable. Another thing I didn't mention is my firearms and, especially, ammo are finite quantities that I will not willingly give up, possibly putting me and my family at risk down the road should I run out in an extended SHTF type situation. Selling, bartering, trading are different situations. They didn't provide for their defense, so too bad and they're not getting something for nothing via a "loan". Not my fault or anyone else's but theirs. Call me a selfish SOB...I don't care...and I'm not the only one with this opinion/stance here, either.
 
Ed Ames said:
If a neighbor (or friend, coworker, whatever) came to me today and said, "I'm 42 years old, I've never owned a gun, don't know anything about them, but I think my situation is such that I need one..." I wouldn't hesitate to educate him/her on firearms and, if I had one that was suitable, sell it to them. I would start with theory, safety rules, the fact that guns aren't magic... I'd probably break out the BB gun and walk them through shooting a bit, and then I'd sell them the gun and ammo. I'd comply with the laws of course but in my case that's fairly easy.
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We're talking SHTF crisis scenario per the ORIGINAL POST. Do you really think you're going to have and/or take all that time and effort when you very possibly are trying to defend you and yours? I think not... I know you said "selling or some other form of compensation", but, again, that was NOT in the premise of the ORIGINAL POST. It only addressed "loaning" and compensation was never mentioned.
 
I'm extremely untrusting myself but I think we must mean very different things by the word.

My lack of trust means that I want to be in an innately strong position and there is no stronger position than being free and surrounded by free and self-sufficient people. People who aren't free, and aren't self-sufficient, don't value my freedom and do covet my stuff... they are far more likely to attack me for it, kill me for it. If I can encourage those around me to be free and self-sufficient I'm serving my own interests. The problem is that, especially in a disaster, freedom requires a certain measure of strength. A gun can help there.

The last thing I'm going to do is try to corner the market on strength... to be the one obviously armed person... that makes me a target and everyone will attack.

The next to the last thing I'm going to do is try to play weak... to be (or act as though I am) unarmed... that invites others to think of me as a victim and they will attack.

What I'm going to try to do is encourage everyone to see me as their equal... to think of me as armed, and to think that's normal because they are armed. That way lies peace and prosperity without any need for trust.
 
And... yes I would take the time to educate if I thought I was dealing with someone truly new to firearms... it's an investment in my security. Disasters usually involve a lot of waiting/down time and there is plenty of time to spend teaching and learning. As for "sell", I clarified the "sell it to them" several times. Sell doesn't mean "exchange for money"... it means an exchange of benefits. I'm exchanging my ownership interest in a firearm for some benefit be it money or safety. I use the term to clarify my position that handing someone a firearm in a disaster isn't charity... it's something I would do for my own (or our mutual) benefit.
 
Ok, Ed, I will agree that it is very honorable and respectable that you would take the time to ensure proper training. You are right that there can be much down time waiting on aid/supplies/etc. Heck, it would probably be a WONDERFUL diversion from the boredom, depression and general calamity of such a disaster. One thing I'd be worried about is when there's general destruction (ala Katrina) is teaching them to actually shoot. Gunfire would probably not be viewed upon by anyone as a positive thing in such a situation and sound travels a long ways...far beyond the "teaching environment" in the general outdoors as proper/official ranges won't be open...or even exist anymore. Neighbors, any local/federal aid types, people in general, etc would have a hard time discriminating between your gunfire and criminal gunfire, like what was experienced during Katrina. Could even make you a target for arrest (or worse) if there were, God forbid, any other sort of confiscation orders. I know it's illegal, unconstitutional, blah, blah, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. We all know that to be true.

I did see you mention breaking out the BB guns, which is much better on the noise. I have a few quality break barrel pellet rifles myself. But, if you really want to "teach" them, they'll have to fire actual rounds and get over the "recoil/muzzle blast/really loud noise" stigma so they aren't afraid to use it when the time comes. Get over closing the eyes and flinching when pulling the trigger, too.

I know you clarified "selling" and that's why I said this. "selling or some other form of compensation"
 
BB/Pellet guns would have to be good enough to get them started. We really aren't talking ideal situations here... so they can't really expect ideal training. It's up to them to adapt. Wasting ammo wouldn't be smart and you are very right about the noise. Of course... after they had the basics down they might get some practice by hunting.

As for the difference between giving and selling, I don't recognize it. Giving is a selfish act... our brains are wired to dose us up with feel-goods when we give stuff away. In fact researchers at the University of British Columbia and Harvard are getting ink today for publishing a paper documenting the link between giving stuff away and having happy feelings dropped on you. It's all selling... the only difference is whether we're selling for drugs supplied by our own brains or selling for external benefits like social or material gain.
 
Hey, if people want to give me stuff so they can be selfish and feel good... Bring it on! :D

And, you are absolutely correct about air rifles being suitable training devices. Heck, I've got some powerful break barrel and side cocking springers and they KICK! Master those and that will directly transfer over to "real" firearms quite nicely. Really have to work on the follow through, too, because of the overall slower lock time of the action from when the trigger is pulled to when the pellet leaves the barrel. CO2, pump, or PCP (compressed air) airguns don't suffer from this type of recoil because there's no massive spring/piston assembly flying around. But, it still won't prepare the potentially timid for "real" recoil, noise, muzzle flash and the general stigma of firing a "real gun". A lot of uninformed people view any and all airguns as toys even though some are quite capable of taking down some very large game! Quite high muzzle energies and up to .50 cal! Check out the Gary Barnes and Dennis Quackenbush stuff. :what:
 
I think every situation is different. My neighbor has a shotgun, so he's armed. He knows I'm armed,,,he's given me permission to shoot targets on his property.
We live in the country, so if people were "out and about" in our neck of the woods, they would be either looking for help, or looking to "help" themselves.
I'm sure we would be helping each other out and watching out for each other, and if SHTF, like a zombie invasion, our neighbors would be here---so yes, Id "furnish" arms and ammo to everybody here, but my "toys" would remain here.
If a neighbor "had" to venture out to get "supplies" from their place, I'd be going with them----strength in numbers!!
UJ
 
The fact is that some 40% of households have guns.
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I have heard and read that statistic and would like to believe it is true. Actually, I would like to believe it is higher. But can anyone point to some substantiation of that number?
 
LOL... me too! I'm ready to help people feel good any chance I get! :)

Re-reading that it does sound downright strange... point is, no matter how you look at it if I give something away it's because I think I'm getting something worthwhile in return... maybe it's happy joy joy feelings, maybe it's the comfort of thinking that a thief who attacks that person is less likely to survive to attack me, maybe it's cash (or, if I'm giving money, maybe it's a gun)... whatever the reason is, I'm doing it for a reason.

Some of the heavy duty pellet guns are very impressive. I have a spring pellet rifle that bangs and kicks about as much as some .22 rifles (enough that I'm more accurate if I wear hearing protection while shooting it) and it's a wimp compared to the serious air guns. For teaching handgun shooting my choice right now would be one of the CO2-powered "blowback" BB guns... the kick of the slide coming back is better than no recoil at all though I doubt it's up to even .22 standards. Plus it's a repeater, can be used to teach decocking and working a slide, and the BBs bounce off even a moderate jacket so it's a relatively safe tool.

ETA:

The fact is that some 40% of households have guns.
Click to expand...
I have heard and read that statistic and would like to believe it is true. Actually, I would like to believe it is higher. But can anyone point to some substantiation of that number?
Click to expand...

http://www.gunsafe.org/position statements/Guns and crime.htm puts the number at 42% and gives their methodology. I've seen others quote as high as 45%.
 
We live in the country, so if people were "out and about" in our neck of the woods, they would be either looking for help, or looking to "help" themselves.
Click to expand...

Yeah, watch out for those Ravenwood operators! Sorry, shameless Jericho reference. :neener:

Ed, you're right about the blowbacks for air pistols. I have one, but's not a BB/pellet gun, per se, as it's a "green gas" (aka propane) powered airsoft pistol. They make some VERY realistic guns. I have a G26 and it's exactly the same weight and dimensions as a real one. It has a metal slide so there's some "kick" and a nice "clink/clink" sound when it cycles. VERY cheap to shoot and the airsoft plastic 6.5mm "BBs" are reusable if you catch them in a soft trap where they won't get chipped up. Still need to use eye protection, but they are "safer" than the metal shootin' airguns. Pretty darned accurate across my garage (the long way), too. Not enough power for hunting anything, but it will punch through the front and rupture (sometimes penetrate) the far side of an aluminum soda can at that distance. Won't break the skin but it DOES hurt. Don't ask me how I know. :D

I like my KWA G26 because, although not realistic, it has the "happy/fun" full auto switch on the side of the slide like the G18. :evil: Blows through the gas, but it's great fun. Still has a semi-auto position for realistic training, however.
 
I would think that it would be prudent to have a cheap, single shot break open shotgun or two to lend to someone whose home was so seriously damaged that they couldn't get to their other guns immediately. If circumstances are right and you trust the person, it's a good thing. They have a basic tool that can be used effectively with a little training and they might be eternally grateful. Shotgun ammo is still pretty cheap.

Another consideration for those of you in hurricane country: you've seen the hordes of snakes and other critters that can be dredged up from the swamps and scattered around the neighborhood after a big storm, so a shotgun would be protection from two-, four-, and no-legged critters.

I would definitely want at least a 12 gauge when this little guy comes a callin':

http://break.com/index/sep18gallery23.html

Brrrrr!
 
One final note... looks like we're basically on... well, not the same page but at least we can each see where the other is coming from... but I wanted to clarify why I switched to "selling" from lending.

I'm a very untrusting person. Lending means trusting. I don't. I haven't lent anybody anything since I was 18 or so. That doesn't mean I'm ungenerous. I'll share, I'll give, but I won't let someone walk away with something I want or need back.

I get around that little character flaw by giving stuff away. If a friend wants to borrow a book I'll just give it to him. If a friend wanted to borrow a gun I would give it to her. If a neighbor wants to borrow my hedge trimmer... well... how much do I really like the neighbor? If I give the item there is no obligation, no time limit, no keeping track of who has what... it is theirs and I'm done with it. If some day they decide to give me that same item that's nice but from my perspective it's a complete separate gift. There are limits of course... if I wouldn't give them the item outright that means I'm more attached to the item than to the friend (and yeah, that happens... family heirlooms and so on) and they've just hit my limit. I suck... they can't have the item... sorry, I just don't want to deal with a screw up that costs me something I actually care about more than I care about that person. Needless to say there aren't many people I'll let "borrow" my car or other truly expensive possessions and those few are very good friends... but that's my rule and if one of those people disappears with my car some day I'll be more worried about the friend than the car. There's a middle ground too... when the "gift giving warm fuzzies" aren't reward enough to get me to give this item to that person I'll sometimes take cash or other valuables as well. :)

I won't say this little quirk helps keep me sane (it's probably too late for that) but it does help keep me from ruining friendships and bursting blood vessels. :) It sort of throws people from time to time because they'll ask to borrow something, I'll give it to them (sometimes because I wanted an excuse to get a better version) and get a replacement and then they try to return what they "borrowed" and I tell them to fly a kite I have already replaced it and I don't need two. That has happened a few times and it gets some strange but gratifying looks. I can take some getting used to from a friend perspective. :)

That's just my own personal issue of course and doesn't have any bearing on whether anyone else should lend... but I think that, especially in uncertain circumstances like real survival situations, you really shouldn't think of anything as a loan because the people you are lending to may never be in a position to repay that loan or return your property. If you need something back get it up front as payment or re-evaluate your priorities. If you're really in a survival situation that might require weapons how can you trust anyone to return your property? They may not even return. You can't count on getting anything back so don't even set the expectation. Or maybe I'm just being weird.

I won't lend...I'll give or sell. So... if the question was strictly "would you lend a gun" then I guess my answer is no... but I would sell/give guns without hesitation. Certainly without the moral qualms or fear of those weapons being turned against me that some have expressed.
 
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I use to have enough guns to outfit a small Melita and IF I were in a Karena situation (roving bands of thugs heading my way) I would have passed them out. Unfortunately , due to a situation out of my control, I could barely arm myself and the wife now. I would hope that one of my neighbors would see the wisdom of loaning me some ammo or an SKS or something a little more fitting than my bolt action .22 and 870 & bird shot.

I had to sell off everything else to pay medical bills, but I'm not a sheep. Trust me on this, if it happened to me it could happen to anyone.
 
When the attack of 9-11 happened, my neighbor indicated that he was concerned about the natives getting restless and was not prepared. I told him that I had him covered. I can and will arm (some of) my neighbors if it comes down to it.
 
Thanks For The Input

Ok I've read the responses & applied them to my situation. My neighbors know I have a gun. They do not know I have some guns,( The differance being A gun means don't break in at night, SOME guns means break in when no ones home) and I'd feel better if it stayed that way. I still think my best bet in such a situation would be to try to fly under the radar as much as possible I.E. no generator to make noise, no bright electric lights, house is dark nothing to indicate its worth looting. And NO becoming known as "the gun man"
 
Yeah, I'd fly under the radar if possible. It would all depend on the situation and your "neighbors". I have neighbors who are intelligent people, but aren't shooters (as far as I know). If things got really bad I would rather hand them an sks to help save both our lives than go down fighting on my own.
 
If it is a situation with armed raiding gangs damn straight I would arm "select" neighbors. I can't fire more than one gun at a time and the only deterrent to force is equal force. You may not be able to teach marksmanship but sometimes like an AK you can teach someone to operate it pretty damn quick. All the folks worrying about control and legalize FORGET ABOUT IT. The time for foolishness had done passed.
 
When I lived at my parents house I would've armed the neighbors on either side but NO one else. The neighbor on the left owns guns, but they're only .22's so I'd give him something bigger in caliber.

The neighbor on my right is a former Marine so I would give him my AR, since he'd be familiar with that platform & I have other guns I can us for myself and my family.

At my current apartment building, there is no way I would arm any of them. Don't know them well enough & don't need them used against me. I have my girlfriend and myself with plenty of arms & ammo to hold off for a good while.
 
All those soccer moms and beer bellied old guys may have some hidden talent.

Community rules. One may be a trauma nurse, the next a mechanic, and that skinny paper shuffling dude with the suit may be an organizational genius. To think any one's skill set is irrelevant is wasteful. Even the trophy wife can watch the kids so YOU have the time to help elsewhere. Gung Ho is not just for soldiers.

Lend a gun? Sure, if they have a few brain cells to rub together. Depends on the individual.
 
They didn't have guns before and now are thrown into an emergency situation. Uncertainty is high and no time for training. I don't believe I would lend guns out under those circumstances.
 
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