Impatience will kill me or cost me, One or the other soon.

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DasFriek

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I put this in the General HG section as its not such a hardcore facts question, But more of a "How not to settle, And still get the right gun" type of thread.

This year for X-Mas my folks asked me what i wanted and i replied "Cash again pls, I need another ccw gun". As its been cash for one reason or another for several years, But i like to buy things with it ill own forever so ill own something from them i really cherish when they are gone.

Anyhow i need a third gun, A small pocket'ish type.
Here is the issue, The new Sig P290 http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=70&productid=307

By all accounts it wont be out until after the end of the year, But that doesn't mean it will be here even close to that time.
I mean i know i can wait a week for a gun to arrive when i have money in hand, But waiting till god knows when most likley will drive me insane.

I have 2 options which are the Sig P238 which i owned before and loved and the Kahr PM9.
I have issues with both of those tho.
The P238 is a .380 and i want a 9mm for cheaper ammo costs and better ammo choices so i can take it to the range and not shoot ammo that costs more than my .45acp. But ammo availability is high and prices are dropping and at .40 cal ammo prices. Still not cheap to shoot, But the gun shoots like a caddy.

The PM9 is generally $699 and sometimes on sale at $629
Its $609 at Buds and i can get $20 transfers.
I want a 9mm as my first choice as why i picked the Sig P290. Ammo costs are the cheapest of any gun and the widest availability and a variety thats unmatched.

But the Sig P290 should be coming in at $530 MSRP which should be in the low $400 range as long as shops dont jack the price since its new.


These are the only guns ill consider and im not asking for other suggestions.
Ive been researching ccw guns for 1.5 years constantly and i know way to much about every gun out there than i need to.

The gun will be used a bug when i know im going to really bad parts of town, But mostly a gun i throw in my back pocket when i dont have time to holster up my 1911. It is not a high priority gun as i have my 1911 i carry 80% of the time and a XD SC .40 that does small gun duty IWB carry.

But heres my question.
If you was in this position what would you do?
1. Wait?
2. Buy the P238 as i am a 1911 guy and love the gun anyhow.
3. Buy the PM9 as its a proven gun even tho it costs more, I wont regret it.
 
Well, if I were in your position, I would end up scratching the P290 off the list (or any new-to-market gun) simply because it isn't yet proven. For example, the Ruger LCR is an intriguing little pocket gun (though I've got that role covered), but if I were to buy one I'd want to wait a few years to give any big design flaws a chance to surface. Let others be the beta testers. But that is just my prefence. Back when I used to buy cars new, I made it a point to not buy the first year of a new redesign for the same reason. Often, bugs and niggles appear in that first year that are resolved the 2nd and 3rd years.

Of the remaining two, well, again if it were me I'd go with the PM9. Even though ammo is becoming more available where I live, .380 is still on the scarce side. Particularly JHP .380, and when you do find it a) there isn't enough of it to test for reliability (50 rounds at a time, max) and b) it is frickin' expensive. I've not shot a P238, but I've tried my father's Kahr K9 and love the smooth, DAO trigger mechanism. But again, that's just me.

I don't think you can really go wrong choices 2 and 3. 1 might prove to be fine too, but personally I'd rather take the wait and see approach. If you stumble on a used 238 or PM9 for a good price, you could always go that route now and sell it / trade for a 290 later once any bugs are worked out.

Good luck!
 
Very sensible advice, And i thank you for answering as im sure most people find this as trivial. When it comes to guns and hobbies im almost OCD about it and its on my mind constantly and im always kicking new ideas around.
With the Sig P290 being the only new part of the equation and with variables like availability i was stuck in a quandary.

But the 1 year rule of buying new items and being a "Beta-tester" is a very real possibility. I actually did that with the Sig P238 when it came out and it wasn't flawless either. But after some Mag tweaks and Wolff recoil spring it was an amazing gun to shoot.
Plus i loved the mini 1911 look and SAO and carried cocked and locked like my main weapon.

Now ill admit ammo can have its spurts, But ive been on a buying and stock piling binge as im paying off other bills and had to wait to buy a new gun so i bought ammo instead.
.380 seems readily available and in the $13-$14 price range and some times $11-$12 and plentiful online. Thats still high compared to 9mm.

Granted im a person who doesn't have much faith in the .380 and 9mm both as great man stoppers, But both do work well in reality. Im just .45acp biased.
So since i look at both calibers in that group the difference the .380 give up in power doesn't worry me. It actually a pretty powerful round once i finally shot some.

It will be a tough choice between the P238 and PM9 as both will do the job i need and both have plus's and minus's. So it may come down as to whats available and on sale or cheaper the day i go buy.
I know the shop i use never has used P238's but they do have used PM9's but they ask almost full retail for a used thats close in price as a new one.
So they would have to come off that price alot to buy used.
 
I would be wary of buying any new designs from Sig because of the QC problems they had with the p238. Soft slides that wore out too easily and bad springs that collapsed! Do a search on any forum and you will find lots of stories about this.

Edit:Then again I had a bad PM9 at one times so no brand is guaranteed to be perfect! -)
 
I know all about the P238 issues, And nothing i seen worried me as i already stated i owned one of the first ones and i did the adjustments to it myself and it ran like a champ.
But ive never heard about soft slides on them so if you know where that info is id like to read it.
I carried mine cocked and locked in my back pocket in a leather covered Desantis Nemisis holster. Im 6'4" 270 and the gun had no issues after id be sitting on it days at a time.

I think most issues people saw with that gun is what everyone sees in small 3" 1911's which is normally mag related feed issues.
Im not a know it all, I just have experience with the P238 and the gun doesn't scare me if it doesn't run smooth immediately.

Ill admit Kahr does scare me a bit as ive never owned one and they have been know to issues and Kahr ignore alot of it until 200 rounds. But they supposedly have good CS so that doesn't worry me as much.
Im really leaning towards the Kahr if i can get the right price, I really want a 9mm for the obvious reasons. That is of course if the P290 isn't available yet.

I may call sig Monday and see if they know how long after the first of the year the gun will be available.

BTW if you guys look closely at the P290's slide its looks very,very close to the P238's slide with a few different cuts. But both guns specs are pretty identical except weight which i feel is somehow a wrong.
The P238 with an aluminum frame is 15oz's
The P290 with polymer frame is 20oz's
Unless they intentionally made it heavier to absorb the extra recoil of a 9mm.

After some consideration i may replace the PM9 with the MK9 as its specs are the same except 5oz's more for the steel frame.
Since i want this to shoot at the range alot it only makes sense to go this route, But it will force me to buy threw buds or special order locally.
 
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I'll bet the slide on the 290 is heavier (less milling internally) to match the power of the 9X19 round, that would account for the weight difference.
 
JellyJar- Thanks for the link, That was an issue i wasn't aware of. Plus i can keep an eye on the Sig forums for the P290 release info.
That seemed to be a batch issue with the slide of the HD P238. But ill admit i was considering that model since i back pocket carry cocked and locked and i weigh 270lbs and tall.
But Sig did fix the issues the guys were having albeit kinda slow since they were made in batches.

Honestly at this point im really sold on a 9mm in the micro size. And the MK9 Kahr is leading the way with its steel frame which will be a big plus in taming the 9mm in such a small gun.
Since the gun is so small a few extra 5oz's mean nothing to me as this is a back pocket gun only. And durability and shoot-ability being more important.

I can see what my local shop can do for me and order it threw them, Or i can go threw Buds as i can get $20 transfers locally. But i want to give my local shop a chance first as they are pretty close to Buds volume of sales and they just started internet sales and im not sure if they sell guns that way yet.

Id still take the Sig P290 first if its out as its price should be much more affordable.
 
Sig is now advertising the P290 on their homepage, So that makes me think it could possibly be out at the first of the year.
But i got to admit i can get just a good of a gun from Kahr in the PM9, But the more ive been thinking i really like the MK9 which is the same exact size but has a steel frame.

I know i loved the Sig P238 for 2 reasons, The main one was it was SAO and built like a 1911. Secondly it had a steel frame, When i see a steel framed gun it makes me feel like the gun could last forever.

But i have ruled the P238 out as i dont want to mess with .380 ammo due to lack of choices and high cost of ammo even still. I can buy .45acp at the same price as .380 in most cases. The lesser power of the round doesn't phase me none as i do have confidence in it, As much as i do in 9mm anyhow.

So at the first of the year it will be the Sig P290 or Kahr PM9 or MK9 and ill go with which ever is the best and easiest deal at the time.
 
If I were in your position I would consider a prelock S&W J frame Centennial Airweight 642 or 442 revolver in 38SPL.

I will never depend on a small frame semiauto to protect my life. I have owned several and they are too fickle for my taste.
 
When .38 spl ammo costs $10 for a box of 50 ill consider it.
The main reason of this gun is equal parts of being a bug and then a quick gun to throw in my back pocket when im in a hurry and also a great range shooter.
It will see most use at the range as i have been carrying spare 1911 mags instead of a bug and rarely in so much of a hurry i don't have time to holster my 1911 up.

I guess i need a 9mm range gun more than anything, But to justify spending the money the gun must have a carry use also. And as a bug and a quick pocket gun its barely an excuse really.

But if i was looking for a gun that i would be carrying in my back pocket as a main gun that id be doing often then i would surely agree with you. My cousin carrys a smith .357 mag PD or M&P i know thats about $700 and its an amazing gun. I don't know the exact model as i dont know revolvers well at all, But i could pick it out of a line up.
I swear my spare 1911 mag weighed more than his loaded gun, Yeah i liked it alot.
 
I'll never get to own anything like this but your questions made me look at the specs on all three. I see that the P238 is SA only and the other two are DA only. For me that would be a big decider one way or the other right there.

You mentioned ammo costs. And yes that is a huge factor. But reloading can reduce the cost of ammo to where reloading .38acp can be as cheap as reloading 9mm. So at that point it's a non issue. But given that you live in the country of cheap Walmart 9mm it may not be worth the trouble unless you really love the .38acp round.

Since you say that you enjoy shooting your guns a lot as well as using them as a working SD arm then I'd suggest that the ongoing cost of ammo if you opt to avoid reloading is the major decision maker of this deal.

Mind you it sounds like your heart is set on a 9mm option. It just comes down to which. I tend to agree on the issue of teething troubles on new products. But some companies seem to test more rigorously than others. If Sig has a history of trouble free introductions on past products I'd say it's worth the wait and go for the new toy. Besides they seem to be coming in at a price that is roughly half what that Kahr is going for.
 
I'd like to say that I would wait, but that would make me a hypocrite (Friday I decided I'd hold out for a 1911, Saturday I bought a Ruger)

It sounds like you're OK with carrying a .380, Which is initially cheaper than the Karh, and you already know you like it. I would probably buy the Sig .380, and see if I could find same way to get ammo pretty cheap. Maybe save up and buy in bulk?

I'm just throwing this out there, (asking for my own benefit too) would it be possible to save money by hand loading .380 ammo for range use? I know the start up cost is pricey, and I'm not sure if they even manufacture dies for .380, but it might be worth looking into. This is pure speculation and may very well be utter B.S., just so you know, but I thought it was worth throwing out.

When it comes to guns and hobbies im almost OCD about it and its on my mind constantly and im always kicking new ideas around.
Click to expand...

I know exactly what you mean.
 
Also, the Pm9 is light enough to pocket carry. I don't think the Sig P290 will be light enough.
 
Ive been over to the Kahr forums and have settled on a MK9 which is the same gun as the PM9 but with a steel frame. I feel a gun this small needs a steel frame like the Sig P238 has to be enjoyable to shoot alot at the range. But i hear the PM9 shoots just fine for its size recoil wise.
Reloading isn't worth it for me, The main reason is space which i only have outside in a shed and that doesn't leave much of the year for making ammo.

I actually have no issues between SAO and DAO and what ever mix of the two as long as its smooth and short.
Weight isn't an issue here either as its already a small gun and being in my back pocket it wont be hardly felt at all. also the PPS 9mm i carried before is only a few oz's lighter and i never even noticed it back there except for its size. The MK and PM are alot smaller than the PPS except in width.

Its been a tough decision as those guys over there found out im a 1911 and .45 fan and keep tempting me with a PM45 instead of the PM/MK9 but that defeats my purpose of having a cheap 9mm range gun and also a small bug.

But maybe later down the road i fully expect to be making a thread "Colt New Agent vs Kahr PM45?" to replace my XD SC .40 as i like everything about the .40 except the snappyness takes lots of practice for me to get back on target quickly like i can with my other pistols.
 
Well, you could get a KelTec PF9 or P11 to use in the meantime. With a $250 +/- investment you aren't out much. You might or might not have to fluff-n-buff it --- I didn't when I had one. Good news is that they hold their resale value pretty well; you should get all or almost all your money out of it because SOMEONE will want it and be willing to pay for an FTF.

While you carry the KT, you keep reading about the new Sig. If real-world reviews are favorable and if you have a chance to try one and like it, you can unload the KT and move on the Sig.

You can scratch the "gotta have a gun now" itch while practicing patience towards getting the Sig.

Q
 
I have the PM9 and it's a well built gun and as you said, the ammo is cheaper. While your initial purchase might be slightly higher, it will be less expensive in the long run.

I can't comment on the Sig P238 as I don't own one. I had the Ruger LCP which was a great little gun but I traded it off, sold the trade and used the money to buy one of the new S&W Bodyguards in .380 for a slightly smaller pocket gun for those times that the PM9 just wont work for me.

I looked at the SIG but I don't want a single action for pocket carry. Drawing from this type of concealment is a little slower than OWB and even IWB and I don't want to have to add a step like cocking it before addressing a threat.

I know it can be carried cocked and locked but then you still have to disengage the safety before use which adds precious time to your draw. The less I have to process mentally in a high stress situation the better.

The Body guard has a dual action trigger so I can carry it in a pocket holster with the safety off and not worry about it. It also has actual sights, last round slide lock and dual strike capability in the event of a misfire. I'm not trying to sway you towards the S&W, I'm just explaining why I like it.

So out of the two you offered the PM9 would be my choice. Let us know what you choose and be sure to add pics. We all like a little gun porn from time to time. :)
 
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