In Ohio, questions on CCW laws.

[TheNev]

Hi all, traveling for business near Dayton, Ohio. Just checked into my room and was about to head out to find some food when I checked out the hotel's guest book/information thing. On the page for "Safety and Security Information" under "Firearms" it says the following:
"Although Ohio offers provisions under the 'Conceal and Carry' law for private citizens, carrying a weapon on these premises is prohibited and violators may be subject to arrest for criminal trespass under applicable state law."

I'm from Missouri, where a "no guns" sign carries no weight of law, and if it's discovered you're carrying concealed, proprieter or employee of the facility can askyou to leave. If you don't, you can be charged with trespassing, but I don't think it's a criminal charge. We also have Castle Doctrine that protects us should we need to use a firearm in a dwelling. In MO a dwelling can be your car, a tent and a hotel room, among others.

Am I hosed in regards to carrying while staying in a hotel with this policy? I won't carry until I get a firm answer.

Thanks everyone.

 

[Beentown]

Cannot give you a firm answer as I am not able to pull the information (ORC) on my phone at this time.

Everything you described above is also the case in Ohio I believe. CD carries over to your vehicle, hotel, etc... trespassing is also the same.

Was the office entrance clearly posted? Your room?

 

[Cee Zee]

If the building is clearly marked as being off limits to guns you can not carry guns there. When I took my class the limitations were limited to any building. They can't restrict you from carrying outdoors even on the property where the building is located. That could have changed though.

My suggestion would be to find a new motel and demand a refund. The more these people realize the lost business over refusing to allow concealed carry the quicker they will get over their personal problems with guns. It is a personal decision of the owner of the business to deny you your right to carry. I always try to deny those poeple my money.

 

[TheNev]

Beentown: I'm currently outside having a smoke, and I see no "no guns allowed" on the main entrance doors and there's certainly no sign posted on my room door.

Cee Zee: I'd love to be able to do that, but since this hotel was paid for by my employer, I can't switch hotels or demand a refund. I try not to frequent establishments that infringe on my rights, but at this point, I have no choice.

Thanks for the replies, guess I'll leave my gun in my luggage.

 

[hAkron]

If there is no sign conspicuously posted on the enterence then I would assume that safety and security information thing you read is probably out of date, or doesn't apply and put that out of your mind. Any 'no guns allowed' signage conspicuously posted on the enterence does however carry the weight of law. I'm pretty sure however that it would only apply to the common areas. Your room is essentially your domicile while you occupy it and would be no different from your home in that respect...though I AM NOT A LAWYER or even well versed on the ORC in this regard.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

Just my opinion you understand but concealed is concealed, next time call ahead and check the establishment's policy. If it really concerns you lock it in your car. Personally I'd be more concerned if it was out in my car.

 

[DoubleMag]

Just being in their literature is irrelavent. Being conspicously posted on a door is not. I would leave my pistol in my vehicle if I were you. Can you disassemble the pistol, or lock it up securely somehow?

I did a quick search on yahoo with these terms...

''ohio concealed posted motel''

it brought up an Ohio specific website as #1... please read as it does quote the applicable law. Post in question is 2/3rds way down, icon is a black&white of a guy holding a long barreled revolver....

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=63748

hope that helps some!

 

[dab102999]

Beentown: I'm currently outside having a smoke, and I see no "no guns allowed" on the main entrance doors and there's certainly no sign posted on my room door.

Cee Zee: I'd love to be able to do that, but since this hotel was paid for by my employer, I can't switch hotels or demand a refund. I try not to frequent establishments that infringe on my rights, but at this point, I have no choice.

Thanks for the replies, guess I'll leave my gun in my luggage.

Another question for you is since your employer is paying for your hotel is there anything in your employment agreement that does not allow you to carry while working?. Since your employer is paying I assume you are there for work.

 

[TheNev]

dab: Yes, my employer has a no firearms policy and a no guns sign posted at the entrances. Not illegal to carry, but I could certainly be fired. I've looked through my employee handbook several times and never saw anything regarding carrying while out of town or anything like that.

 

[davers]

In Michigan, where I am a CPL holder, here is what the Hand Gun Law Website says: it seems in a book of rules is reasonable

A: There are no specifications for "No Guns" or "No Weapons" signs in Michigan law. Under the law, there are two ways for a CPL holder to know that guns are not allowed in a specific location. The first is the list of "Pistol Free Zones" (often colloquially referred to as violent criminal empowerment zones) that we must all memorize, which is part of the CPL statute (Pistol Free Areas). The second is when the owner or lessor of any real property communicates to us that our guns are not welcome there. That communication must be reasonable in order to be effective. By reasonable, I don't mean polite. I mean that there is an effective means of communicating to us that we are not welcome so long as we are carrying our guns. This can be done with a sign, verbally, or in some kind of printed material. For instance, if there is a reasonably-sized and located sign in a retail establishment indicating that guns or weapons are not allowed, that would constitute reasonable notice. If an employee of the same establishment actually tells you that you may not carry on the premises, that would constitute reasonable notice. If your employer has an employee handbook or some kind of printed guidelines, and includes a prohibition on guns and/or weapons, that would constitute reasonable notice. If you choose to ignore any such reasonable notice, then you become a trespasser rather than a business invitee. Trespass can be punished as a crime and/or in civil court, and could affect your CPL licensing status.

Of course, this is for Michigan...I couldn't find anything for Ohio...

Dave

 

[Sam1911]

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/ohio.pdf

A conspicuous sign posted in a public place does have the weight of law in OH.

Another question for you is since your employer is paying for your hotel is there anything in your employment agreement that does not allow you to carry while working?. Since your employer is paying I assume you are there for work.

Really off topic for the discussion at hand.

 

[TheNev]

DoubleMag: I just looked at your link. Holy Cow! That's some confusing stuff! How long has Ohio had CCW on the books?

 

[Jeff H]

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/ohio.pdf

A conspicuous sign posted in a public place does have the weight of law in OH.

Correct answer with a big BUT. It does carry the weight of law, but it is not a gun crime, just a (4th degree IIRC) misdemeanor trespass charge.

Edited to add the ORC excerpt:

(3)

(a) Except as provided in division (C)(3)(b) of this section, the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. If a person knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature and the posted land or premises primarily was a parking lot or other parking facility, the person is not guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and instead is subject only to a civil cause of action for trespass based on the violation.

 

[Sam1911]

So the main difference from other states is that in this case the trespass charge is automatic, whereas in states without such a law someone must be first asked to leave, and then refuse to do so before the trespass charge is brought.

 

[TheNev]

That's how I'm understanding it also, Sam.

 

[Cee Zee]

Ohio has had CCW for exactly 8 years. I know because mine runs out this month and they are good for 4 years at a time.

Signs that designate your property to be gun free must be a certain size and they must be posted where you will see them. In a motel where there are multiple entrances I'm not sure if they would need a sign at every entrance to make their ban effective. It's possible.

 

[Deanimator]

Signs that designate your property to be gun free must be a certain size and they must be posted where you will see them.

No, they DON'T have to be "a certain" size. They do have to be "conspicuous". You can't post a "no guns" sign in the employees' restroom, then try to claim that a customer KNOWINGLY violated your policy. You can demand that the person carrying the gun leave. But then other than certain VERY specific exceptions (race, religion, etc.), you can demand that ANYONE leave for ANY reason... or none at all.

They don't have to be on ALL the entrances, but for the purposes of the law, if somebody walks into an unposted entrance, they have not KNOWINGLY violated the posting. They can, if exposed, be required to leave.

 

[Cee Zee]

No, they DON'T have to be "a certain" size.

You don't have to shout friend. I could certainly be wrong but I know that was part of the discussion about the signs early on. At any rate there's no reason to shout at me about it.

 

[Jeff H]

You don't have to shout friend. I could certainly be wrong but I know that was part of the discussion about the signs early on. At any rate there's no reason to shout at me about it.

It may have been part of the discussion early on, but it didn't make it into the statute. The only state that I am aware of with a law like that is Texas with their 30.06 sign (ironic, I know) but there may be others.

 

[Cee Zee]

I looked it up Jeff. It isn't part of the law. I know the CCW lobby was pushing for a requirement on sign size and location but after the law passed I pretty much quit keeping up with the law. There was a modification of the law that happened pretty quick and I was thinking the sign size was part of that but apparently not. I don't mind being wrong once in a while though. I just don't think people should be screaming about it as it it was some mortal sin.

 

[SMMAssociates]

There may be a problem with even having a gun with you in the hotel room. Seems like somebody told me that the ORC specifically outed that.

However, that shouldn't be a problem.... You just can't carry it "inside", and "what sign?" is generally a bad defense. If your "home" license or anything else you have is otherwise valid in OH, then carrying it (or having it with you in your vehicle) is essentially never a problem, even if the lot is posted, with a couple of exceptions. (The "secured" parking area around a Post Office and just about any school and it's adjacent parking lots.) Without a license valid in OH, unloaded and locked in the trunk is pretty well required. OH law now and the FOPA do not require that magazines and speedloaders be unloaded. (OH used to require that magazines and speedloaders be unloaded, until September 2011 if memory serves. Long guns have to be unloaded, though - completely, regardless of any licenses, but again, magazines need not be anymore.)

The problem here in OH is that the original law was full of mean-spirited zingers that we've spent the last eight years to kill. Most of them are gone, but there's no "employee protection" yet (i.e., leave your gun in the car if you can't bring it into work), and the rules on letting a property owner tell you not to carry in their building are way too fuzzy.

Initially, we had to carry "in plain sight" while in a vehicle. That was a mess, and some people got convicted based on circumstances that would have rendered the firearm fully visible as contraband. We killed that one a few years later. In OH (and one of the reasons we had trouble getting Concealed Carry through) you can Open Carry without a license just about anywhere that's not posted (and some that are, apparently), but you can't have a loaded weapon on your person or in your vehicle without a license. This requires you to get out of the vehicle to put the weapon "on", or to put it away before you get into the vehicle.... Someday....

I guess the important thing here is to not over-think this one. Leave it in the car, and hope for the best. The hotel is not likely to really care anyway if you don't get caught, but it's best not to tempt fate.... Not to mention illegal....

Regards,

 

[TheNev]

I appreciate the replies everyone.

I really don't feel safe leaving it in the car. It's been tucked away in my luggage since I've gotten here.

 

[OH_Spartan]

the source of Ohio CCW laws is www.ohioccw.org.

 

[md2lgyk]

I really don't know much about Ohio carry laws, but it seems to me that once you've paid for your room, it's fundamentally no different from renting an apartment. What you do inside "your" room is nobody else's business (within reason, of course). Especially considering that the restriction was not made known to you before you checked in.

I would never leave a firearm in a car overnight in some motel's parking lot. As an LEO, I took a lot of theft reports in such parking lots. Keep it in your luggage or the room's safe if it has one.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I really don't know much about Ohio carry laws, but it seems to me that once you've paid for your room, it's fundamentally no different from renting an apartment. What you do inside "your" room is nobody else's business (within reason, of course). Especially considering that the restriction was not made known to you before you checked in.

I would never leave a firearm in a car overnight in some motel's parking lot. As an LEO, I took a lot of theft reports in such parking lots. Keep it in your luggage or the room's safe if it has one.

Well, here's the exact wording from R.C. 2923.126(C)(3):

(a) Except as provided in division (C)(3)(b) of this section, the owner or person in control of private land or premises, and a private person or entity leasing land or premises owned by the state, the United States, or a political subdivision of the state or the United States, may post a sign in a conspicuous location on that land or on those premises prohibiting persons from carrying firearms or concealed firearms on or onto that land or those premises. Except as otherwise provided in this division, a person who knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature is guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. If a person knowingly violates a posted prohibition of that nature and the posted land or premises primarily was a parking lot or other parking facility, the person is not guilty of criminal trespass in violation of division (A)(4) of section 2911.21 of the Revised Code and instead is subject only to a civil cause of action for trespass based on the violation.

The following paragraph (b) in that section says this:

(b) A landlord may not prohibit or restrict a tenant who is a licensee and who on or after September 9, 2008, enters into a rental agreement with the landlord for the use of residential premises, and the tenant's guest while the tenant is present, from lawfully carrying or possessing a handgun on those residential premises.


HOWEVER, 5321.01 Landlord and tenant definitions has this to say with respect to defining an "appartment" with respect to your concern:

..."Residential premises" does not include any of the following:

(3) Tourist homes, hotels, motels, recreational vehicle parks, recreation camps, combined park-camps, temporary park-camps, and other similar facilities where circumstances indicate a transient occupancy;


So this IS fundamentally different than renting an appartment and is IS the business of the owner/operators of the hotel.


As for the not being made known...unless I missed this elsewhere in this string, we don't know that. All we know is this person first became aware of this when he read the guest book. This MAY be posted in accordance with Ohio law...we just don't know that, so we can't make any assumptions otherwise.


Sources:

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.12

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.126v1

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/5321.01