Incident at a local gunstore yesterday in SoCal

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HI express

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southern CA
The other day I picked up my new purchase (Para-Ord CCO) and on Saturday my wife and I were out and about and on the spur of the moment I decided that I needed to check out accesories for my new toy.. somehow at that time my car was about 6 blocks from Turner's off of the 605 freeway. My car already knew the way so when we parked just outside the doors my wife elected to have me get her handgun in the car trunk so that she could sit in the car so that she could enjoy quiet time.

Remember, this is Los Angeles County so that is a no-no. So is having a "loaded" weapon in the store. So I put my handgun in a Life Jacket and lock it in the trunk. I have my Benchmade folder and I figure I'd be in the gun/sporting goods store for only a "little while." That is why my wife decided to sit it out.

I get about midway into the store, checking out the available holsters, checking around. People go in and out of the store constantly and about 8 people are checking out the guns in the glass counters..nothing overly suspicious.

I'm looking at a holster in the shelves when I hear near the handgun counter.."You can't bring that thing in loaded!" There is a lady working at the counter who was showingg a handgun to a customer when she noticed a young man hand a loaded magazine (bullets loaded in the mag) to one of his friends in front of the counter.

Everyone within hearing went on semi-alert. I peered around the shelving to see what the situation is, hand on Benchmade. here is what I saw, four young men standing near the lady facing out in a semi-circle. Some with hands in jacket pockets The man nearest to her with a loaded pistol magazine, starts arguing in a loud voice defending his position. One male customer nearest my left and the counterman serving him have their hands on their handguns.. the customer appears to be an armed citizen. They are focussing on the loudmouth. The lady does not appear to be armed. Another employee comes out of the backroom, he does not appear to be armed but he starts explaining to the loudmouth what the law is.

The way the four guys are standing, they look like several are packing under or in their jackets. Things are getting tense.

I turn quickly towards the cashier and the door into the door. Setup? Anybody blocking the escape? Or covering the door for the four?

Time to go. If things go south I am in a bad situation, I am relatively unarmed. I might be able to sneak up on the guy closest to me but if the things escalate at that moment, I stand a good chance of catching lead. shelves tend not to stop bullets, agreed?

Looking around the aisles around the exit corridor, I have eyes and ears wide open. Before I go out the doors I check the cars outside of the store. My wife sees me, her eyes are wide open. She nods at me, surprised that I was coming out of the store so quickly. (Not my usual half an hour or longer) She had been paying due diligence to her surroundings and her nod indicated to me that she hadn't seen anything suspicious outside.

I jump in the car, got us into a far corner of the parking lot with the car facing out. Called the local police on her cell phone then got gun out.

The cavalry arrived a short time later and my wife and I headed home without any new gear.

I'd appreciate any input on what I could have done to improve my odds or what I could have done period?
 
Short of breaking laws (in which case you woulda been screwed if the situation escalated, you might be alive but in jail for quiet awhile especially if you shot and killed one of them) there isn't much you could have done. You could have played the hero if something happened and maybe got one of them with the knife but like you said that's not a good position to be in. I'd say you handled it well.
 
.."You can't bring that thing in loaded!" There is a lady working at the counter who was showingg a handgun to a customer when she noticed a young man hand a loaded magazine (bullets loaded in the mag) to one of his friends in front of the counter.
Click to expand...

im not up to date on crazy Kali law, but is it a crime to possess a loaded magazine now?

im not sure why that would alert someone. a loaded magazine may indicate presence of a weapon, but, what is to say the person(s) aren't legally carrying, like off duty peace officers, armed CCW holders, etc?

i wasn't there, but if some salesperson yelled at me for having a loaded magazine, and it wasn't illegal, i wouldn't do any business there. that sounds like poor customer service, or an overly zealous salesperson at a gun store. you know, the type that carry a gun openly on their hip in the store and don't want anyone else armed in there...or the type of salesperson who is a "know-it-all" since they work at a gun store.

again i dont know the laws in Kali, is a loaded magazine illegal nowadays? that is crazy.

i think you did good by leaving the store, but then you added:

I jump in the car, got us into a far corner of the parking lot with the car facing out. Called the local police on her cell phone then got gun out.
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what was the reason for this? if it was a rapidly escalating situation, best thing to do after calling 911 was to leave, not stay around and attempt to intervene. uniformed police responding to a call like this may not know you are a good guy. being in plain clothes with a gun when the uniforms show up can put you in a risky position.

also, if you are carrying a loaded firearm in CA without a CCW, last time i checked, you were violating 12031 PC, and possibly 12025 PC if you are carrying it concealed.

best thing to do would be to leave the situation, not just go out into the parking lot, get your gun, load it, and see what happens. there was no reason to hang around, unless you intended to buy something after the situation was diffused.

but if you were honestly afraid enough to leave the store, why hang around?
 
CA law-loaded mag=loaded gun!

a loaded mag is a loaded gun in CA if you also have a gun the the mag fits nearby!
the people who write the laws hate and fear guns and their owners


sorry spreadfire while i agree with you it's a dumb law it is a law...one that I never did obey anyway- except when cheking into the range, I would keep my loaded 15 round glock clips in my pocket and the empty 10 rounder in the tupperware
 
Afraid?

Hi Spreadfire and Mannlicher,
I don't know if I was afraid enough or what. I am kind of stupid that way. My tour in Vietnam ('66 to '68) used up a life time of fear for me. I am not into heroics only into surviving but I believe that I am living on borrowed time. I am 57 years old now and I've seen enough incidents and have done enough stupid stuff and have survived those incidents more by dumb luck and the Big Guy protecting idiots like me then by any skill on my part.

In tough situations I have played the odds and in this possible situation I saw the odds were way too high for yours truly to catch a bullet, friendly or otherwise if things went south..I hate when that happens.

Having said that I went far away and stayed near the far corner of the good sized parking lot (about 40 spaces and three aisles away with a lot of other cars in between.. there is a local market which shares this area)only to be a good witness. Like spotting the car and license plate of the vehicle of the possible perps (through my handy binoculars), not to get involved or doing any heroics. I had already eyeballed the main players in this fiasco enough to give their descriptions to the police.

In that way I believe in being involved. In my job in soCal, I get to work a lot with the law enforcement officers in the jurisdiction that I work for. I am not a peace officer but I am tasked to work with them on team projects. I know a lot of them and they are a good lot. I have also seen communities which have gone south because of lack of citizen participation. I just happen to believe in my participation in the level that I described in an effort to help the good guys.

I did call the local Sheriff's department (their jurisdiction) and they did state that they did respond to an incident at that store.

I need to look up California laws to find out what the deal is on loaded magazines without a gun present. I thought that it was strange too but I didn't want to stick around to find out if there was a gun that went along with that magazine or if there were other guns which were hidden in those guys pockets.

Just mark it up to weird that's all.

Illegal? Yes, but as I have said before I train to survive. Past riots in L.A. have taught me that you need to survive on your own until the cavalry arrives..sometimes it is a long time. As you guys noted, stuff happens in a short space of time. More often survival with a little bit of luck and quick, decisive action can save your heinie.

Luck, guys.
 
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Thanks, gunsmith

Hey Gunsmith,
Thank you for the information. By the way that lady employee was acting I figure that she had something and she stood her ground to these four guys.

Mannlicher,
I figure that it could have been over reaction but when it's that serious and it had the potential for getting my skin ventilated, I wanted to err on the side of the idiot..me.

Spreadfire,
Peace man, I figure I'll go back to getting some of my supplies on line even though it is great to molest the firearms at the gunstore. (Joking) I have no intention of getting into a possible gun fight with potentially seven guns that could have gotten into action in a heartbeat. Bad odds, period. Small area, too many guns, no bullet stoppers anywhere..a whole lot of human bullet catchers, though.
i wanted to get out of the physical area (line of fire) and I was caught in the dilemma once I got out of there, to do my civic duty or not. So there I was.
:uhoh: :uhoh: :what: :what:
 
gunsmith said:
a loaded mag is a loaded gun in CA if you also have a gun the the mag fits nearby!
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Um, sort of.

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(b) Carrying a concealed firearm in violation of this section is
punishable, as follows:
...
(6) By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a
county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment if
both of the following conditions are met:
(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of
being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate
possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.
(B) The person is not listed with the Department of Justice
pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106, as the
registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.

-----
12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm
when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.
...
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
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12031(g) is supposed to be parsed
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section

when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm,

including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof

attached to the firearm.

That is, a loaded mag IN the firearm makes the firearm loaded; ammunition must be in a position where it is ready for firing - People v Clark, (1996) 45 CalApp.4th 1147

A loaded mag IS probable cause to search for a matching weapon - People v Hale (1974) 43 CalApp.3rd 353. Some argue that this case also defines a loaded magazine as a part of a gun, in the same sense as a slide or frame. Not being a lawyer, I can't see how to get that interpretation out of Hale -- so speak to real professionals with experience in the area.
 
First of all, "Turner's" (a small chain of sporting goods stores in SoCal) has a policy AGAINST any of their employees carrying loaded handguns. They DO have "access" to loaded firearms within the premises, but it is forbidden to carry either concealed or exposed.

Secondly, all of the "Turner's" locations that I have been in have signs posted at the entrances, forbidding loaded firearms to be brought into the stores EXCEPT for police officers and legal CCW permitees (Their signs read something to the effect of, "If you are legally armed, keep it holstered")

Thirdly, by bringing a loaded magazine into a gun store CAN go sideways! It did in Torrance, CA, when a customer walked into a "Big 5" sporting goods store, and asked the gun section employee if he could take a look at an M-1 Carbine. As soon as that customer got his hands on the M-1, he pulled out a loaded 30-round magazine and inserted it in the rifle! He then proceeded to fire several rounds inside the store, and announced that he was robbing the place. A "good citizen" customer was able to get out of the store and call the local police. Torrance P.D. has always been known for their "agressiveness" at crime fighting, and it didn't take long before several police units arrived. The robbery suspect saw the police outside and began shooting through the windows of the store at them. One of those rounds struck an officer, and he bled to death within minutes, for other officers couldn't get to him without putting themselves into the line of fire. After a relatively short "siege", the gunman was taken out by a Torrance SWAT officer.

Considering what you observed, High Express, you PROBABLY could have done a few things different, but since I wasn't there, I'm not going to play "Monday morning quarterback". I'm sure that you've already reviewed the incident and all of your actions, so chalk it up with a "positive" outcome on your part.
 
The robbery suspect saw the police outside and began shooting through the windows of the store at them. One of those rounds struck an officer, and he bled to death within minutes
Click to expand...

That officer was Tom Keller. He and I grew up together as next-door neighbors in Santa Barbara.

Tom was a superb human being - a true good guy.

His death was a tragedy; society would do well with more Tom Kellers.

Sawdust
 
My only thought, reading your story, is I would not have even reached for my folder. Turners' employees have access to real firearms and they are just enforcing store policy. So I would have gotten out of the "line of fire" or hustled out the front door (limited option since that one exit is right by the cashier). I'm thinking I would have moved over to, um, examine the windows nearest the street while watching any confrontation.
 
Sorry for your loss

Sawdust,
Sorry for the loss of your friend. His death makes us appreciate the guys who are in The Thin Blue Line. Actually, my job puts me in a position where I interact with police officers quite often, watching them do their jobs really does make me appreciate what law enforcement officers goes through.

Oldtimer,
Please let your thoughts fly. I learn from your input and hopefully I improve from getting your thoughts(I'm sometimes slow in learning). In my office, we learn a lot of perspectives by folks being honest in their comments when our guys come back into the office after having a "friendly" meeting with the public.

Years back I was shopping at a local National gunstore. I arrived a couple of minutes after a woman had committed suicide after bringing in unexpended ammo into the store. She asked to see a gun in the store. She was handed the gun and turned away from the employee at the counter. He asked her to point the "empty" gun at him but she disobeyed his request. Apparently she was loading the handgun.. at least long enough to point the weapon at herself and pull the trigger. The employee was distraught from the incident and was explaining what happened to anyone who was in the store at that time.

Sad turn of events.

Stay safe guys.

Interesting to hear Turner's policy. Maybe I saw the gun in the employee's hand..maybe it was one that he was showing the customer? I'll ask the next time that I visit.
 
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