Indiana: "Gun permits can be 'passports to danger'"

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cuchulainn

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from the Northwest Indiana News

http://www.thetimesonline.com/artic...nd_state/f14368ec69da5d1686256db50076b276.txt
Gun permits can be 'passports to danger'

No more, though, as gun dealers now have to run every customer through the FBI database.

BY BILL DOLAN
Times Staff Writer


GARY -- Young men and women who apply for gun permits in this city might be asking for trouble.

A just-completed survey of 402 city residents licensed to carry handguns shows the following:

* 71 percent of them either should have been denied a permit or surrendered their permit because they are prohibited under federal law from possessing a gun because of a illegal behavior usually involving domestic violence.

* 47 of the permit holders have been charged with crimes and are still being sought by police.

* 43 are convicted felons.

* 8 are sitting in prison but still hold valid gun permits,

The state's gun permit system is designed to ensure that only persons -- in the language of the law -- of "good character" can carry handguns in public.

Eric Ellis, resident agent-in-charge of the Merrillville office of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, who conducted the survey, concluded the permits at times appear to be passports to danger.

"We found in most circumstances a person became prohibited, because they were charged with a felony such as dealing narcotics, drug possession right after the state issued them a permit," Ellis said.

"In one case, the state conducted a hearing and revoked a handgun permit. The person appealed that, they had a second hearing and the state reinstated the gun permit. Two months later, he is arrested for having a firearm within 50 feet of a school."

Which is why Ellis and other local Indiana law enforcement officials are overjoyed that starting this month, people buying handguns guns in Northwest Indiana's bustling firearms market no longer can use Indiana gun permits to avoid background checks.

Until Oct. 1, gun dealers didn't have to run every customer through the FBI database, since anyone holding a permit already had passed a state police background check to obtain their permit.

However, Indiana lost that exemption after the state Legislature refused to honor a federal mandate to stiffen gun laws to make it illegal to possess and carry weapons for persons charged with more minor crimes.

"It will be a good thing for law enforcement and the safety of our community," Lake County Sheriff Rogelio "Roy" Dominguez said.

Porter Sheriff David Reynolds said, "I think it was a big loophole in the quality control of these gun (background checks). Even opponents of gun control can't be against making people owning guns accountable."

Gary Police Chief Garnett Watson said, "They should have had to do it all the time."

Handguns are believed responsible for a majority of the 84 homicides that had taken place in 2003 since Friday in Lake County -- 58 of them in Gary alone.

Watson said some weeks, his officers have seized as many as 30 illegal firearms. The problem prompted him recently to form the Uniform Crime Task Force, a squad of six officers who are on the prowl from 6 p.m. to 2 a.m. most nights focused completely on the search for guns, drugs and juvenile delinquency.

"It's been very effective for us. They are all aggressive, hard-working cops. This isn't come in and ride around, this is about working your butt off," Watson said.

He said the squad responded to 87 calls for police assistance during the first week in June, making dozens of arrests and seizing three weapons, narcotics and $172 in suspected drug money. They seized another 17 guns in the following month.

Ellis said many of the people in his survey had been arrested by Gary and ATF task forces.

Background checks now more rigorous

Indiana State Police, who operate the gun permit system, insist they conduct rigorous background checks of the more than 300,000 permit holders. But Major Tony Sommer, a state attorney for the state police superintendent, admits the state police criminal database has been incomplete in the past.

He said state police depend on local police departments and courts to help them identify gun permit applicants who should be rejected by reporting felony convictions and other disqualifying violations.

He admits there have been "lapses" in which those records never reach the state police computer database. Gary's City Clerk's office under Katie Hall was notorious for its disorganization and lack of working computers, according to evidence at her criminal trial earlier this year.

One such lapse involves Eugene H. Finch, 55, of Griffith, who possessed five handguns July 21, 2002, when Hammond police were called to his home to investigate the shooting death of his 47-year-old girlfriend, Mary Sutton.

The U.S. Attorney's office alleges Finch had been convicted in in Cook County, Ill., of involuntary manslaughter, a felony conviction that bars him from possessing any handguns. He has pleaded innocent to charges that despite being a felon he bought the five weapons and filled out a background check using a phony birth date. He is awaiting trial next month.

Finch had a valid gun permit from 1998 to 2002 despite the alleged Illinois conviction. State police said it apparently was a case of Illinois failing to report that to Indiana.

Sommer said state police have a procedure for revoking a permit if its holder is convicted of a major felony during the permit's four-year term, but they still must rely on local police and courts to update the state police computer system.

Gun permits also don't have rudimentary safeguards such as a photo identification or a laminated surface to discourage tampering.

Watson said, "I could go on my computer at home and make a copy of a permit and put anybody's name on it, walk into a gun store, walk out with 10 guns and sell them to anybody. And if a cop pulls you over, there is no way for a police officer to know if the gun permit is valid."

Sommer said the Legislature has refused to give state police the money to upgrade gun-permit security. He said it's a money issue, although individual legislators also might balk at any change in the permit system that makes the state look like it's caving in to gun-control advocates.

Rob Wilcox, a spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, a Washington, D.C.-based gun control advocate, said Indiana is considered a permissive state in the area of gun control.

Delays not expected to hamper process

There was concern last week that requiring background checks of Indiana gun permit holders would delay sales, since the federal government has three business days to check their records.

However, gun shops in Lake and Porter counties said they didn't experience any significant delays with the federal instant check telephone line.

Greg Engstrom, owner of Ameripawn in Valparaiso, said the new rule nevertheless could affect his business.

"I have to do background checks even on people who are picking up their own gun that they pawned," he said.

He said any new rule might discourage people from pawning firearms if they have to go through any additional red tape.

"It makes a gun permit pretty worthless for anything but carrying a weapon," Engstrom said.

Ellis said he would like to make gun permits worthless for people arrested for any crimes that disqualify them for gun possession under federal law.

He said he would like state courts to force criminal defendants to surrender their gun permits as a condition of being released on bond while awaiting trial much the way drunken drivers must surrender their driver's licenses.

Ellis said he also would like to see Indiana begin enforcing a law that makes it a crime to list a phony address on a gun permit application or failing to update their address in the state police database if they move during the four years their permit is valid.

He said there has been little enforcement of that law over the years, but he has talked with the county prosecutor's office about changing that. Barbara McConnell, chief deputy county prosecutor, said last week her office will be stepping up enforcement.

Bill Dolan can be reached at [email protected] or (219) 662-5328.

©2003 copyright nwitimes.com
 
WOW???????

* 71 percent of them either should have been denied a permit or surrendered their permit because they are prohibited under federal law from possessing a gun because of a illegal behavior usually involving domestic violence.


IF this is true---A BIG IF --

There is a real problem and real ammunition for the antis:uhoh:
 
Is this the law in Indiana?
Good question.
C 35-47-9-1
Exemptions from chapter
      Sec. 1. This chapter does not apply to the following:

      *snip*

        (3) A person who:
           (A) may legally possess a firearm; and
           (B) possesses the firearm in a motor vehicle that is being operated by the person to transport another person to or from a school or a school function.
As added by P.L.140-1994, SEC.11.


IC 35-47-9-2
Possession of firearms on school property, at school function, or on school bus; felony
      Sec. 2. A person who possesses a firearm:
           (1) in or on school property;
           (2) in or on property that is being used by a school for a school function; or
           (3) on a school bus;
commits a Class D felony.

No mention of 50 feet. In that chunk, anyway.
 
It has to be a lie.

There is no possible way 71% of Indiana permit holders are criminals.

Which permit holders did they survey? The ones they arrested?

My BS detector is smoking on this one.
 
Well, I'd almost believe that 71% of Gary permit holders are criminals. I know I wouldn't be too sad if that whole city either fell into Lake Michigan or went back to Illinois with the rest of Chicago. :barf:
 
IF this is true---A BIG IF --
There is a real problem and real ammunition for the antis

Yowza! I agree 100%!

We found in most circumstances a person became prohibited, because they were charged with a felony such as dealing narcotics, drug possession right after the state issued them a permit," Ellis said.

But, I'm give pause since the overall tone of the piece is so anti. Methinks there might be some playing around with the numbers here.
 
A just-completed survey of 402 city residents licensed to carry handguns shows the following:

Which 402 city residents? What census tract? What zip code? Was it a random distribution around the entire city? How many of them were provably in posession of a gun anyway?

How many people in the same area carry illegaly without any permit at all?

:rolleyes:

Since it's a STATE WIDE permit system, only figures for the entire state have any real meaning. You can hand-pick any 402 people out any population of thousands and "prove" just about whatever you want.

That's the beauty of VT and AK's non-system of a CCW "system", the criminals are criminals, and the law-abiding are the law-abiding, nice and simple.
 
I live in Indianapolis and I can fully believe that 71% of the residents of Gary (not of the state, the article clearly stated the figures were for the city) are violating firearms laws. The city is a cesspool. Like CatsDieNow said, it would be better if Lake Michigan flooded it or Chicago annexed it. I'd gladly give them Gary.

That being said, Gary is not a small city and 402 residents is hardly a large enough sample to come up with good numbers. Notice there's no marging of error.

But the figures are also misleading in that it puts the onus on the individual to surrender a CCW permit following conviction for a crime which requires revocation of the permit. To which my response is 'yeah right.' Criminals don't follow the laws anyway.

I will admit that the state and sheriff departments are probably lax in revoking permits after formerly law-abiding permit holders are convicted of crimes (sitting in jail for a crime is not the same as being convicted for it which makes their last "factoid" bogus as well). But Gary is a world apart from the vast majority of the rest of the state. It's got all the rights and priveleges of a gun-friendly state, but all the politics and stupidity of the Chicago mentality of firearms. Not a good mix.
 
I got through this part:

Gun permits can be 'passports to danger'

No more, though, as gun dealers now have to run every customer through the FBI database.

BY BILL DOLAN
Times Staff Writer

Then I got to:


Then I expected idiotic statements like:

Northwest Indiana's bustling firearms market

It will be a good thing for law enforcement and the safety of our community

Even opponents of gun control can't be against making people owning guns accountable.

And the drum roll please:

It makes a gun permit pretty worthless for anything but carrying a weapon




:barf: Gary is like a tumor on our state :barf:
 
I'd like to see the methodology they used.
It's called "Pulling numbers out of the air."

bsmeter.gif
 
hmm - Gary and no mention of methodology. Wont stop antis from jumping all over this. A slightly positive note I suppose is that the Indiana legislature resisted federal pressure to stiffen gun laws.

I dont mind improving the system to filter out bad guys but antis will do whatever they can to "filter" us out as well.

Mark
 
Living in Northwest Indiana is a passport to danger. Ditto the notion that Lake County is a cesspool. You can't generalize from their little "study" to the rest of the state even if they did have good methodology which I seriously doubt.

RJ,
from the "other" part of Indiana
 
In other news, a survey of 402 voters in California resulted in the astounding conclusion that Angelyne will become the next Governor of CA.
 
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