Info from LEE re Turret Press Bullet Seating

[1SOW]

I hadn't heard this before, so I thought I'd pass it along. I am confused.

I questioned LEE about inconsistent 9mm FMJ OALs with Lee 4-hole turret press and dies. I also questioned the turret 'flexing' up when seating bullets.

From PAT at LEE

"The best way I have found to set up the bullet seating die is as follows; Place a shellholder in the ram, and a sized empty case in the shellholder and raise the ram to the top of its stroke, then hold it there with one hand or brace your knee against the press lever, so you are sure the ram stays all the way up. Spin the bullet seating die down over the case, and keep turning until the die gets tight. You will notice that as you turn the die down tight against the case mouth, the turret will push up in the turret ring until it runs out of clearance. Now as long as your cases are trimmed to a uniform length and you push down firmly on the press lever, the case will push all the clearance out between the turret and turret ring."

From the Lee Bullet Seating Die instructions reads:

Screw the die in until it touches the case then back out 3 full turns. ----Adjust bullet seating depth with the adjusting screw----If crimp is desired then screw the die in slightly and test for desired crimp. "Excessive" crimp will cause the bullet seater to deform soft nose bullets.

My question to LEE was about FMJs, but wouldn't "Pat's" method cause a reeeeaally hard crimp?

What am I missing here????

 

[rondog]

I don't know, but to me that sounds like an either/or situation. Either back the die out 3 turns, OR screw it in slightly to achieve a case mouth crimp.

Personally, I use the Factory Crimp Die to do the crimping, as the next step after bullet seating. That crimp is much more adjustable. JMHO.

 

[1SOW]

Actually "PAT" said to screw it down tight against the case until the turret flexes up!

 

[The Bushmaster]

Are we talking about the "flexing" of the turret (die holder) and the turret retainer ring clearance or are we talking about the press "flexing". I have not seen any "flexing" of the Classic Cast turret, but there is a bit of tolerance between the turret (die holder) and the turret retainer ring which is easy to adjust for. Sure wish I could see where the problem is...

 

[243winxb]

The "From PAT at LEE " would seem to over taper crimp/crush the loaded round. Lee dies are 2 in one, taper & roll crimp in the same die. I would seat the bullet in one die @ 3 turns up, then taper crimp is a separate operation. Make sure the seating stem fits the bullet nose.

 

[1SOW]

Pat was referring to turret flex as he said in the letter above.. When at the last portion of the pull, and the bullet is reaching whatever seat you've set, the turret does move slightly up inside the ring.

My question is , "Doesn't this give a heavy+++ seat to the bullet"?

 

[jim147]

My question is , "Doesn't this give a heavy+++ seat to the bullet"?

Have you tried it?
From my reading of it it would seat the bullet and remove the bell from the case. For an autoloader with FMJ you would be set to go.
It is very close to how I set mine up.

jim

 

[helg]

Both instructions are correct. The one from Pat tells the easiest way to adjust crimping when using the die both for seating and crimping. Instruction from a manual is universal: first part, with the "three full turns" is what to do if you crimp in a separate die, and do not want to crimp in this die, the second part, "screw slightly until" is a long probe method to find "until what", which has a shortcut that is described in Pat's instructions.

Seating-crimping die is a bit tricky to adjust. If you do both seating and crimping in the die, you have to adjust desired crimp first, and seating depth afterwards: crimp adjustment affects seating depth, but not vise versa. It is catch22: without bullet properly seated, you can not adjust crimp, but once you adjust crimp, seating has to be readjusted.

I use three steps: first adjust seating depth in a die with "thee full turns out" to ensure no crimp - only to get seated bullet for the next step, then screw out seating plug and do a crimp adjustment for the round - as described by Pat, and then pull the bullet, flare case mouth again, and adjust seating again, like I did at the first step. Good thing is that it has to be done only once.

With factory crimp die, where seating and crimping adjustments are separated, the procedure is straightforward. Moreover, separate seating/crimping is much less sensitive to brass length. My rounds became more consistent with a separate crimp die.

On a single stage press combining seating and crimping saves time. On progressive, this is not the case, and separate crimping is beneficial without any trade offs.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Since I own a 4 hole turret press I just use a Lee FCD because it's easy to use and I find i get a better results. (not that seating and crimping with the same die is all that hard)

 

[jfh]

helg gave an excellent summary

of the Lee die setups, IMO. I too have gone to a 4-die configuration. As I tweaked in my die sets, I found that

1. The Seater Die setup can 'start' backed out 3 turns--but that you can also adjust that 'start point' down until you start to feel some contact with the belled case.

2. If you end up with the seater die fairly well tweaked to barely touch the case, and if the bell is not overdone, then you may not have much readjustment for seating to do once you start to dial in the crimp in the 3-die configuration.

3. Like ArchangelCD, I find using the 4th / Crimp / FCD die is the easiest to have the greatest flexibility for crimping tweaks. With this die, having the body 'high' makes it easier to have minimal crimp and then to dial in more.

As an aside, when I fiddled around chasing the FCD post-sizing issue, I did try a second #3 die (I.e., seater-crimper) in station 4, and tried to use it as just a crimper. It did NOT work nearly as well as an FCD. So, my take is that one should use an FCD die for sure--and if you have some serious post-sizing issues, trouble shoot them out, looking mostly at (Lead) bullet dia, case wall thickness, etc., etc.--and maybe consider asking Lee for a custom-sized FCD to deal with the post-sizing issues.

Jim H.

 

[1SOW]

Thanks all,
I appreciate the feedback.

I'll start from scratch again, tighten to touch the case, back out 3 turns, and 'lock' it down, and just use the fourth die for the crimp. With the FCD, I'll adjust to touch the case then add a 1/2 turn for a light crimp.
Maybe 3.77" ?

I'm hoping for better than the .01" variation I've been getting in OAL.

Edited: I see one thing I was doing wrong. I was crimping (without realizing it) with the bullet seater AND the FCD. Hopefully separating the two steps--bullet seating & crimping-- and having the bullet seater properly set up will help my problem.

You guys kept telling me the right way to do it and I kept saying I was doing that. I wasn't. You finally got through.

Thanks again (#978), I owe you.

 

[243winxb]

The trick is to set the bullet seating depth first

Bullet Seating Adjustment- When Seating and Crimping in one operation/same die.

The trick is to set the bullet seating depth first, then the crimp. This is done as follows; With an empty, sized case in the shell holder, hold the ram at the top of its stroke. Turn the bullet seating die body down over the case until you feel it come to a stop. This will be when the case mouth contacts the crimp shoulder inside the die. Mark this position by turning the lock ring down against the turret or press frame. Now adjust your bullet seating depth. Once you have the bullet seated to the desired depth, back the bullet seater adjuster out about 1 turn. Now turn the bullet seating die body in to apply the desired crimp. Once this is established, hold the ram at the top of its stroke and spin the bullet seater adjuster down until it stops.

 

[243winxb]

When Taper Crimping in a Separate Operation.

The Seater Die setup can 'start' backed out 3 turns-When seating the bullet in that die.

 

[243winxb]

inconsistent 9mm FMJ OALs Or Seating depth variations

Seating depth variations

There are a number of possible causes for overall length variation. One is the way it is measured. If you measure overall length from the tip of the bullet to the base of the case, remember to subtract the variation due to bullet length tolerance. The bullets will vary in length due to manufacturing tolerances (bullets with exposed lead noses are the worst in this regard) and this will add to the overall cartridge length variation. Remember that the bullet seater plug does not (or shouldn't) contact the tip of the bullet when seating, but contacts farther down the ogive. For a more accurate seating depth measurement, take the seater plug out of the bullet seating die, place it on top of the cartridge and measure from the base of the case to the top of the seater plug.

Another possible cause for bullet seating depth variation is seating and crimping at the same time when trying to apply a firm crimp to untrimmed cases. Variation in case length also causes variation in the amount of crimp applied. Long cases get a heavier crimp than short ones. When seating and crimping at the same time, the crimp is formed as the bullet is seated into the case. The crimp will form sooner on a long case, and therefore the bullet will not be seated as deeply. The solution is to seat and crimp in a separate step (the Lee Factory Crimp die is good for this) and/or trim cases to a uniform length.

The amount of force required to cycle a progressive press varies with the number of cases in the shell plate. When the shell plate is full, it is harder to lower the lever than when there are one or two cases present. This can lead to variation in cartridge overall length because there are different loads placed on the working parts of the press. When the shell plate is full, seating depth will be slightly long, because the load is higher and all of the clearances are taken up. With the shell plate nearly empty, the load is not great enough to squeeze out these clearances, and the seating depth is short.:banghead:

 

[1SOW]

243winxb: My computer kept telling me my version of Vista couldn't use the Tech Assistant download.

I was repeatedly making the same die set-up mistakes over and over thinking I was following the instructions. Duhh.

Thanks, all the guys' patience with the mentally challenged is appreciated.