If you are serious in your search, a new or used Kimber montana, mt ascent, or Adirondack will fill the bill nicely. You need a bull barrel like you need a ---- in your head. Cross purposes me thinks. If you do not know what you want you will not get it.
Input Request - Appalachian Mountain Rifle
- Thread starter BlondeBear63
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BlondeBear63
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Many thanks for everyone's input. The number of widely varying experiences and thoughts are the reason I come to this forum.
About the barrel: Two reasons for considering a bull barrel in 16" only, sporter profile for almost all others. First is repeatable accuracy out to 300 yards. Just how much difference in accuracy can be expected between the two 16" barrel profiles. While the kill zone may be 12", an anchoring shot is far more appropriate in the often dense and mountainous areas I hunt. Far better to use a second shot on an animal that's not getting away than trying one deadly shot on animal that may run over the other side of the mountain and never be found. The second consideration, and far less important, is overall balance and how comfortable will it be for me to carry and use.
Concerning actions: Tirod's reply is very insightful. However, my experience with scopes on anything bigger than a 22LR or .204 Ruger is recoil keeps me from seeing where shots are hitting. The type of action determines the effort and time working it, hence how long before the process of re-acquiring the target may occur. Naturally, a semi-auto will be much quicker than a bolt, lever, pump, etc and those much faster still than a single shot. Which, by the way, is still much faster than my muzzle loader. Reducing the overall length and weight of the gun is more important than the type of action. Also, the type of action may very well determine how much stock has to be carried.
Caliber. I haven't heard much and am a bit surprised. With the AR platforms there are three realistic options: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, and .458 SOCOM. Any experiences and are any of these truly viable? Remember, the first shot has to anchor the animal. From the bolt action bunch, It is the very fine .308 cartridge. I want to check out the Ruger Predator, thanks jmr40 and BTW that is one fine gun, as well as a few others mentioned. What of the many choices available in the single shot category? I can consider the versatility of hand loaded light loads for the 375 H&H or factory 7mm-08, trading my muzzle loader for a T/C barrel, pistol hunting deer with 30-30, as well as a turkey barrel.
Price: Not more than 550 dollars as carried up the trail. That includes scope, ammo, sling, everything. Excepted is the T/C as that I would order as a pistol frame so I can pistol hunt as well as upgrade to a very fine muzzle loader for free. And let's not forget the gimmickry of the manufacturers. Plastic stocks are far cheaper and less time consuming to produce. The same is true of stainless. No time consuming bluing, EPA conformance for chemical disposal, etc. And when was the last time anyone has seen really good bluing on a factory standard firearm?
A bit on my changing hunting style. Last year, just for fun, I took my old single shot 12 gauge turkey hunting. SO much better to carry. It started me thinking. This year I went scouting with my 5 1/2" Super Blackhawk loaded with snake shot and fully realized just how carrying an 36" long, 8+ pound ultimate killing machine distracts from the joys of hanging about the woods, looking for quarry.
Once again, many thanks to all for all the great replies and input.
About the barrel: Two reasons for considering a bull barrel in 16" only, sporter profile for almost all others. First is repeatable accuracy out to 300 yards. Just how much difference in accuracy can be expected between the two 16" barrel profiles. While the kill zone may be 12", an anchoring shot is far more appropriate in the often dense and mountainous areas I hunt. Far better to use a second shot on an animal that's not getting away than trying one deadly shot on animal that may run over the other side of the mountain and never be found. The second consideration, and far less important, is overall balance and how comfortable will it be for me to carry and use.
Concerning actions: Tirod's reply is very insightful. However, my experience with scopes on anything bigger than a 22LR or .204 Ruger is recoil keeps me from seeing where shots are hitting. The type of action determines the effort and time working it, hence how long before the process of re-acquiring the target may occur. Naturally, a semi-auto will be much quicker than a bolt, lever, pump, etc and those much faster still than a single shot. Which, by the way, is still much faster than my muzzle loader. Reducing the overall length and weight of the gun is more important than the type of action. Also, the type of action may very well determine how much stock has to be carried.
Caliber. I haven't heard much and am a bit surprised. With the AR platforms there are three realistic options: 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, and .458 SOCOM. Any experiences and are any of these truly viable? Remember, the first shot has to anchor the animal. From the bolt action bunch, It is the very fine .308 cartridge. I want to check out the Ruger Predator, thanks jmr40 and BTW that is one fine gun, as well as a few others mentioned. What of the many choices available in the single shot category? I can consider the versatility of hand loaded light loads for the 375 H&H or factory 7mm-08, trading my muzzle loader for a T/C barrel, pistol hunting deer with 30-30, as well as a turkey barrel.
Price: Not more than 550 dollars as carried up the trail. That includes scope, ammo, sling, everything. Excepted is the T/C as that I would order as a pistol frame so I can pistol hunt as well as upgrade to a very fine muzzle loader for free. And let's not forget the gimmickry of the manufacturers. Plastic stocks are far cheaper and less time consuming to produce. The same is true of stainless. No time consuming bluing, EPA conformance for chemical disposal, etc. And when was the last time anyone has seen really good bluing on a factory standard firearm?
A bit on my changing hunting style. Last year, just for fun, I took my old single shot 12 gauge turkey hunting. SO much better to carry. It started me thinking. This year I went scouting with my 5 1/2" Super Blackhawk loaded with snake shot and fully realized just how carrying an 36" long, 8+ pound ultimate killing machine distracts from the joys of hanging about the woods, looking for quarry.
Once again, many thanks to all for all the great replies and input.
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BlondeBear63
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BlondeBear63
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Tirod,
You are right, "... a man has to know his limitations."
The action makes very little difference to me.
Lightweight, overall compact, and repeatably effective to 300 yds.
That's all...
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BlondeBear63
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What is the barrel length, overall length, and weight of your contender?
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BlondeBear63
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Thanks. I'll see if I can find one to shoulder.
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BlondeBear63
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Sweet.Ruger Predator in 308.
18" medium heavy barrel threaded for suppressor or flash hider
7 lbs as shown in photo
Under $400
It does this at 200 yards. The 18" barrel is about 100 fps slower than a 24" barrel. With good bullets will take any bear in the lower 48 and deer out to 400-500 yards.
W.E.G.
Member
That limits you to a low-end rifle with a medium-quality scope.
Get one that has one of the modern surface-coatings applied at the factory. Today's "paint" is quite good.
Save on a few ounces of weight by NOT getting something like the 25-06 -- which is a LONG-ACTION caliber.
You've mentioned the .458 SOCOM several times. It is not a good choice for 300yd hunting. It's not even a particularly great choice for 200yd hunting as it has quite a bit of drop by then. It's also expensive and hard to find.
In regards to the bull barrel thing, something like that Tikka is gonna shoot 1" or less with ammo it likes. I suppose you could heft a bull-barrel into the field that maybe would repeatedly shoot 0.5" In field conditions, I can assure you that you are going to be the weak link as the shooter.
I don't know if you're a math guy, but root mean error is a frequently way to factor for numerous sources of error in a system since the sources of error don't necessarily add directly. Suppose you can shoot a 4MOA group offhand in a field position. With a 1/2 MOA rifle, at 100yds, you'd be looking at about a 4" group. Now suppose you'd be doing it with a 2 MOA rifle. You're looking at about a 4.5" group. Your skill is the main source of error. The only place you're gonna see a difference between the bull barrel and sporter is in a benchrest situation.
In regards to the bull barrel thing, something like that Tikka is gonna shoot 1" or less with ammo it likes. I suppose you could heft a bull-barrel into the field that maybe would repeatedly shoot 0.5" In field conditions, I can assure you that you are going to be the weak link as the shooter.
I don't know if you're a math guy, but root mean error is a frequently way to factor for numerous sources of error in a system since the sources of error don't necessarily add directly. Suppose you can shoot a 4MOA group offhand in a field position. With a 1/2 MOA rifle, at 100yds, you'd be looking at about a 4" group. Now suppose you'd be doing it with a 2 MOA rifle. You're looking at about a 4.5" group. Your skill is the main source of error. The only place you're gonna see a difference between the bull barrel and sporter is in a benchrest situation.
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BlondeBear63
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Thanks for your input.
I think what is considered "low-end" by today's standards are far better guns than they are given credit.
The original Savage 110E, with its "ugly" barrel nut sold for $110. Is today's $100 scope better or worse than 40 years ago?
In the field, the low end guns are likely to perform nearly as well as their much more expensive counter parts. The chief difference will be the expenses for fine finishes and brand name recognition. The real question to answer is why we are charged more for plastic stocks and stainless steel though it costs less to produce them.
I agree with selecting a shorter cartridge for weight savings.
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BlondeBear63
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Eldon, thanks for your insights. I certainly appreciate your thoughts on the SOCOM.
The bull barrel is out after reading: http://www.ershawbarrels.com/scb-contours-and-weights.php
To keep the math easy and simple to share, I add MOAs:
1 MOA = 1 Minute Of Accuracy at 100 yards. It is equal to a pattern of 1" diameter at 100 yards.
2 MOA = 2 Minutes Of Accuracy at 100 yards. It is equal to a pattern of 2" diameter at 100 yards or a 1 MOA pattern projected to 200 yards.
3 MOA = 3 Minutes Of Accuracy at 100 yards, It is equal to a pattern of 3" diameter at 100 yards or a 1 MOA pattern projected to 300 yards.
Example: At 300 yards a hunter with 1 MOA at the moment of truth using a 1 MOA gun equals 2 MOA yielding a 6" pattern. That becomes a 15" pattern if the hunter has a 4 MOA. Not ideal, but useful to a hunter in determining his real ability. And it can be done at 100 yards and any sub MOA gun.
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BlondeBear63
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A few T/C Encore dimensions
The weight of either rifle or pistol frame, with stock and no barrel, is about 3 1/4 lbs.
The overall length of a typical T'/C Encore rifle is 15" plus the length of the barrel.
Example: Stock and Receiver with a 16' barrel will have an overall length of 31"
The weight of either rifle or pistol frame, with stock and no barrel, is about 3 1/4 lbs.
The overall length of a typical T'/C Encore rifle is 15" plus the length of the barrel.
Example: Stock and Receiver with a 16' barrel will have an overall length of 31"
I purchased a Stevens model 200 which is pretty much the same as a Savage model 11. Installed a timney trigger and cut the barrel down to a 16 Iinch. Did a little stock reinforcement and it wears a 2x7 Luepold. The rifle is a .308 and is a MOA shooter. It tips the scale at just a tad bit over 6 lbs. It's become a favorite of mine when I hunt the Cherokee National forest here along the Tennessee/North Carolina borders. The rifle used cost $200.
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