Instinctive shooting

[CleanHarry]

I have gotten to the point where I am "two eyes open", focus on the front dot, area-shooting with speed. It took probably 1500 rounds... Shot through 8 or 10 different guns... Lots of "two to the body, 1 to the head"... But I feel like I'm there. Now if I do that whole thing 3 more times... And take some more training... I could defend my self and my family.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Lots of "two to the body, 1 to the head"... But I feel like I'm there.

At what distance are you getting clean hits?

How fast are you able to shoot a clean Failure Drill?

Using the sights, I can shoot one clean, from about 5 yards, at a bit less than 1.5 sec...reacting to a timer's signal...how much faster are you shooting instinctively?

 

[rs7]

One to the head will usually suffice. But keep firing. If it's good enough to shoot once.....

 

[BSA1]

The terms we use are;

Instinctive - gun is held below line of sight such as at waist level.

Point - Gun is brought up almost to shoulder level within line of sight. Shooter looks over the top of gun without using the sights when firing the gun.

Aimed - Gun is brought up to shoulder level and sights are used.

Of the three Instinctive is the most difficult to master. It is intended for close range shooting. However in days of long ago the FBI and Police Departments taught it using one hand from the hip and lowering the body by squatting. In the 1960s another variant of this emerged where the non-shooting arm was angled and the non shooting hand was made into a fist held over the heart. The technical name for this position is “one hand, unsupported”. The agencies I worked for (and when I was a Instructor) taught use of this technigue out to 7 yards.

The term Instinctive can also be used to describe repeated practice of a particular shooting stance until it is natural which seems to be what the O.P. is saying.

Since the O.P. is using the front sight it sounds like Aimed Fire. He doesn't say what distance he is shooting from but I would encourage practicing one handed shooting from the hip. 5 yards is close enough. Extend the pistol slightly towards the target and squat balancing the weight of your body on the balls of your feet.

For really close range defensive shooting we usually started at 3 yards and would work back increasing the distance. At three yards we would avoid extending the gun and hold it close to the body shooting as rapidly as possible. We would produce interesting holes in the target sometimes when using a backer piece of cardboard that had been shot on a lot and had a large hole in center. The muzzle blast would rip a large hole in the paper (it also made scoring the target fun. It was even more fun when a target would start to catch fire from the burning gunpowder particles hitting it). It also proved you can never be too close to the target to miss.

When you start doing so use a clean target with a large sheet of paper or cardboard cause at first your shots will be widely scattered. By seeing where your shots hits you will quickly learn to walk them into the center of the target. I have started working on this technique again due to open and concealed carrying.

I guess the point I am trying to make is don't get to locked into shooting a particular position all the time. For me varying my shootings and techniques is also refreshing, challenging and fun.

 

[CleanHarry]

Thanks BSA... Wow, did I use the wrong term! You are right, what I'm doing would be "aimed" within my newly-learned terms. You have opened my eyes... Can't wait to try the other methods!

 

[9mmepiphany]

Of the three Instinctive is the most difficult to master. It is intended for close range shooting. However in days of long ago the FBI and Police Departments taught it using one hand from the hip and lowering the body by squatting. In the 1960s another variant of this emerged where the non-shooting arm was angled and the non shooting hand was made into a fist held over the heart. The technical name for this position is “one hand, unsupported”. The agencies I worked for (and when I was a Instructor) taught use of this technigue out to 7 yards.

I remember these techniques It is what we were taught in the academy. There was a slightly awkward moment when someone asked, "Are we really expecting our fist to stop a bullet from hitting our heart?"

I do remember Point Shoulder also and never understood why you'd bring the gun all the way up and not look at your sights

I realize this is the common usage of the term Point Shooting now days, but I've always used it for shooting from Retention...close to the hip/pec...and try not to use the term Instinctive Shooting; it is just not very specific as to technique

 

[BSA1]

I remember these techniques It is what we were taught in the academy. There was a slightly awkward moment when someone asked, "Are we really expecting our fist to stop a bullet from hitting our heart?"

I agree. I always wondered who came up with that idea. Maybe a group of instructors in a bar that one too many drinks?

 

[David E]

All we are missing is someone extolling the virtues of "instinctive shooting" who posts a link to a video of himself executing it very poorly....

I could never hit much when I couldn't see the gun in my periphery, which is how they made us do it.

 

[bainter1212]

I practice point shooting sometimes....I do it where the top of the slide fills the bottom of my "screen" if you like.

I find the chief advantage to this is signifigantly opening your field of view. Also a good way to introduce someone to "both eyes open" shooting, when they might be having a hard time in aimed fire.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Thanks BSA... Wow, did I use the wrong term! You are right, what I'm doing would be "aimed" within my newly-learned terms. You have opened my eyes... Can't wait to try the other methods!

Use those same methods you are using now.

And if you can't see your sights, do the same technique AS IF YOU COULD SEE YOUR SIGHTS.

You will find that works very very well.

Deaf

 

[BSA1]

I agree with using the front sight as much as possible but many self-defense encounters occur at very close range and in dim/dark lighting.

I have read, heard about and talked to several officers that have fired their guns in self-defense that often times they do not use or forget to use the front sight as they are focused on watching the attacker (danger). Most self-defense incidents occur very quickly.

One officer I know has been involved in two shootings. In one he shoved the muzzle of his revolver into the body of the attacker and blew away most of the guys liver. In the second he triggered a round into the drivers side of a car as he was jumping out of the way of the driver that was trying to run him down. The bullet narrowly missed the driver by about a 1" hitting the dashboard. Most self-defense incidents occur very quickly. Both incidents occurred at night and the officer did not have time or position to bring his gun up high enough to use the sights.

Another officer I know was attacked by a drunk that beat the officer senseless with a chair. Just as the officer lost consciousness he drew and fired one round while laying on the floor. When the officer woke up his attacker was laying very dead on top of his legs.

I know, I know. There are lots of war stories but all the ones I have personal knowledge of involved unsighted, rapid fire.

A couple comments to the O.P.;

Using 8 -10 different guns, at least for me, would make it very hard to get use to the feel of each particular gun and how it operates. You are only talking about 150 - 187 rounds per gun. I personally would settle on one particular gun and focus on learning how to operate and shoot it well. (Of course this is coming from someone who admits to shooting a variety of handguns himself so take it for what it is worth).

The other involves head shots. The head is small target and the "kill zone" is actually small. I think two to center of mass then shooting low into the pelvis would be better. Breaking the pelvic would certainly slow the attacker down and have a good chance of dropping him.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I have read, heard about and talked to several officers that have fired their guns in self-defense that often times they do not use or forget to use the front sight as they are focused on watching the attacker (danger). Most self-defense incidents occur very quickly.

I know, I know. There are lots of war stories but all the ones I have personal knowledge of involved unsighted, rapid fire.

They do occur quickly and are often at very short distances, however...

I have debriefed many officers involved in shootings while on duty and seeing the sights to make hits seems to win out.

1. It does depend on training. If you train to use your sights, you'll see them. The example that comes to mind is trading shots in a hostage situation. Bg's shots when high, LEO saw his sights and made hits while moving.

2. There is a lot of missing when you don't see your sights. Besides the famous NYPD sidewalk shooting, we had one locally where the BG and LEO traded a number of shots across a parked car in a stripmall parking lot. The officer went through half her magazine before remembering to look at her sights and making the stopping hit. Even then, she jerked the trigger and her shot went low...into his thigh.

3. Real close works too. I had an officer who remembers his whole slide being silhouetted by the BG's body. He put all three shots...he though he only fired 2...into COM

 

[Old Fuff]

The problem with getting a flash sight picture is that you have to have the gun aligned with your eyeball and target with the handgun in between. In real life situations this may not be practical, or even possible. It also doesn't take into consideration that in low light conditions you may not be able to see the sights, and trying to do so can eat up time that you can't afford to lose.

I suggest that to the already proposed instinctive shooting methods we add the one developed by Bill Jordan, and explained in his book, No Second Place Winner. It involves waist-level shooting without any crouch or specific stance, and extends the gun further forward then today's "retention position."

 

[CleanHarry]

@BSA... Yeah, I started thinking about that round count... I feel I estimated really low. The feeling I'm trying to convey relates to my overall confidence and comfort level in shooting. For me, anyway, super careful sight alignment while squinting produces near the same results as eyes open on front sight, "don't have time to get it perfect."

If a BG "whack-a-mole" pops up, I figure I'm gonna need to use the non-perfect aim.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It also doesn't take into consideration that in low light conditions you may not be able to see the sights, and trying to do so can eat up time that you can't afford to lose.

I'd offer for your consideration that if there isn't enough light to see your sights, there likely isn't enough light to identify your target.

Back in the day, when we shot revolvers without night sights, if you could make out your target (in training on a range), you could see at least your front sight.

I suggest that to the already proposed instinctive shooting methods we add the one developed by Bill Jordan, and explained in his book, No Second Place Winner. It involves waist-level shooting without any crouch or specific stance, and extends the gun further forward then today's "retention position."

They still teach this...it is the gamer's way of shooting "from retention" in IDPA

 

[j1]

BSA 1 you put good info on here. Thanks. Now I know what to call what I do. Point shoot seems good for me.

 

[Deaf Smith]

The problem with getting a flash sight picture is that you have to have the gun aligned with your eyeball and target with the handgun in between. In real life situations this may not be practical, or even possible. It also doesn't take into consideration that in low light conditions you may not be able to see the sights, and trying to do so can eat up time that you can't afford to lose.

I suggest that to the already proposed instinctive shooting methods we add the one developed by Bill Jordan, and explained in his book, No Second Place Winner. It involves waist-level shooting without any crouch or specific stance, and extends the gun further forward then today's "retention position."

But for those who use sights, if you can't see your sights, do the same technique AS IF YOU COULD SEE YOUR SIGHTS.


You will find that works very very well.

Just go to a range and try it, first with lights on and using sights, then very dim so all you see is a black silhouette.

For close in use a retention/hip shooting method. It can be the speed rock, 1/4 hip, or any retention method of close quarters fire.

If this sounds alot like the Modern Technique of Cooper, that is cause it is.

Does not have to be Weaver Stance (times have changed) but the basic principle of sighted fire and a retention/hip shooting combination is still valid.

Deaf

 

[RustyShackelford]

DA revolver shooting....

Id review a few online videos or get a training guides.
Massad Ayoob, Clint Smith, Larry Vickers, Jeff Gonzales, etc.
Learn to apply the revolver sights & watch your breathing.
Aim center mass & be able to get a nice tight group of 1"-2". 20-30ft.
Marksmanship isn't easy. Some pick up quickly but most students need a few 100 rounds to achieve the desired results.
If you plan to carry a DA revolver for protection or home defense then shoot DA(double action). No single action or cocking.
Know that you can hit targets under stress with .38spl or magnum rounds if needed.
To take a training class or 2 is also smart. A good cadre or program can teach you the basics.

 

[David E]

Old Fuff wrote:

I suggest that to the already proposed instinctive shooting methods we add the one developed by Bill Jordan, and explained in his book, No Second Place Winner. It involves waist-level shooting without any crouch or specific stance, and extends the gun further forward then today's "retention position."

On the cover of Mo Second Place Winner, Bill has his gun out far enough to see the muzzle in his periphery. We had to tuck the gun in tight, wrist touching our side. This took the muzzle out of my periphery and I had trouble at much distance. If they allowed me to move about 4-5 inches forward, I'd hit well. I got yelled at more than once if I tried to move the gun forward at all.

Today's "retention position" puts the elbow in contact with the side, which is much more workable for me.

 

[BSA1]

They do occur quickly and are often at very short distances, however...

I have debriefed many officers involved in shootings while on duty and seeing the sights to make hits seems to win out.

1. It does depend on training. If you train to use your sights, you'll see them. The example that comes to mind is trading shots in a hostage situation. Bg's shots when high, LEO saw his sights and made hits while moving.

2. There is a lot of missing when you don't see your sights. Besides the famous NYPD sidewalk shooting, we had one locally where the BG and LEO traded a number of shots across a parked car in a stripmall parking lot. The officer went through half her magazine before remembering to look at her sights and making the stopping hit. Even then, she jerked the trigger and her shot went low...into his thigh.

3. Real close works too. I had an officer who remembers his whole slide being silhouetted by the BG's body. He put all three shots...he though he only fired 2...into COM

Oh don't get me wrong I agree with everything you are saying. My worst bad shooting habit is to quit watching the front sight. When my groups start going to heck it is almost always because I am not focusing enough on the front sight. Reminding myself by saying "front sight, front sight, front sight" gets my groups back on target.

Perhaps the first incident I cited wasn't a very good one for civilians as they aren't trying to subdue and handcuff a criminal. His was a extreme example that I was using to show how when being too close to your attacker to bring the gun up shoving it into his body and pulling the trigger is something someone not trained in S.D. might not think of.

 

[David E]

^^^^^

The wrist against (or even slightly behind) the side makes sense when in bodily contact with the assailant.

 

[hardluk1]

Humm, I can see my front sight well enough to shoot decent groups , 1 1/2" at 10 yards standing tall but because thangs adjust slower than I tend to practice more point shooting. I can keep double or triple taps in a center chest area about ,4" by 8" at 10 yards

Rusty I carried a Taurus 85 ss for some 20 years. Mostly at work "carpenter" in a front pocket. It was a standard DA/SA revolver. I almost never used the sa trigger and learn to reach in with my thumb to cover the hammer when drawn. Became so natural I still do it that way some 27 years later with my kahrs I carry no matter iwb , owb or pocket carried. Pull clear and then roll them thumb around to the grip. Old habits are hard to break.