cosine
Member
All you need to remember is that Standing Wolf is the master of satirical soundbites.
Instructing school kids to fight back against gunmen
- Thread starter DKSuddeth
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Ohen Cepel
Member
I think it's pretty much a really sorry answer to a horrible question. 5th graders throwing pencils at a certified psychol is not going to have much effect in my opinion.
Is it better than doing nothing or hiding under a desk? Yes, but it's still a poor solution. Also, the perps will just adjust their plans to reduce this possibility since it's all over the news now.
I think it's a good idea to teach them to not be sheep. However, I really think that allowing teachers to be armed is 1000 times more effective than this.
There are many retired military, police, and well trained civilians that move into teaching as a second career. I think allowing them to right to defend themselves and the children is the way to go.
Is it better than doing nothing or hiding under a desk? Yes, but it's still a poor solution. Also, the perps will just adjust their plans to reduce this possibility since it's all over the news now.
I think it's a good idea to teach them to not be sheep. However, I really think that allowing teachers to be armed is 1000 times more effective than this.
There are many retired military, police, and well trained civilians that move into teaching as a second career. I think allowing them to right to defend themselves and the children is the way to go.
DerringerUser
Member
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2006
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- 238
I think teachers should be allowed to CCW, if not carry an AIR taser. Maybe not kids, but teachers and other officials most defonitaly. An AIR taser can immobilize the attacker almost as well as a gun at close range, and it satisfies all of those gun grabbing liberals, because they're not using guns, but non-lethal weapons.
Teaching the kids to fight back and arming the teachers are great ideas.
Way back when I was in high school, every door was open at all times. You could get in through the gym, cafateria, front door, band door... you name it. Is it the same case now? I would think the first thing to do would be to secure the entry points.
Way back when I was in high school, every door was open at all times. You could get in through the gym, cafateria, front door, band door... you name it. Is it the same case now? I would think the first thing to do would be to secure the entry points.
beaucoup ammo
Member
It boils down to fighting to save your life. With a mandatory student body assembly..featuring someone from CACI or BlackWater (people who won't mince words or be "PC") students can be taught to "swarm", appreciate the value of numbers against 1 or 2 people and get a crash course in self- confidence.
I've often wondered how 3 or 4 zealots with box cutters got away with what they did on 9/11. 20 able bodied men and women could have torn them apart.
Hindsight is great and I wasn't there, but it seems immediate mass response would be one answer.
It's great this is being addressed..here in Texas at that!
I've often wondered how 3 or 4 zealots with box cutters got away with what they did on 9/11. 20 able bodied men and women could have torn them apart.
Hindsight is great and I wasn't there, but it seems immediate mass response would be one answer.
It's great this is being addressed..here in Texas at that!
telomerase
Member
So it's OK to plan for suicide attacks against armed men, but it's not OK for teachers to carry any weapons? Or for that matter, students... why shouldn't students have pepper spray?
Stauble
Member
yep. they tell you to line up against a wall, stick your head between your knees and kiss your butt good bye. well the last part is implied anyways.
if it wasnt for thier immigration problems i swear id move to Texas right now.
if they get open carry before florida does ill move there anyways
Some kids might get hurt or killed fighting back, but that could and probably will happen if they don't. Remember, ten to twenty feet of distance can be closed within 2 seconds. A gunman may get a 1-3 shots off in that time before the mob gets him. Kids and teachers won't all be rushing from one direction either, most likely attacking from at least two directions.
I fully agree with the concept being taught. It is time to teach young Americans that they don't have to be victims or sheep.
Remember, how we live and how we die are the two most important decisions we ever have to make. Better to die fighting than kneeling on the ground begging for mercy.
Take some with you...
I fully agree with the concept being taught. It is time to teach young Americans that they don't have to be victims or sheep.
Remember, how we live and how we die are the two most important decisions we ever have to make. Better to die fighting than kneeling on the ground begging for mercy.
Take some with you...
RioShooter
Member
Front Page
The AP story made the front page of The Brownsville Herald.
The AP story made the front page of The Brownsville Herald.
javacodeman
Member
Ah.?.?.?.?.?.I would blame the gunman who pulled the trigger. But isn't that what he went there to do in the first place?:banghead: :banghead:
Lucky
Member
Bump.
Deavis
Member
Good luck teaching people like this
Old enbough to vote, drive, drink, buy a weapon, and die for your country but still a kid? 20 something-odd years old and still wanting someone else to make the world safe. You can't teach a sheep bleeting that loudly.
Old enbough to vote, drive, drink, buy a weapon, and die for your country but still a kid? 20 something-odd years old and still wanting someone else to make the world safe. You can't teach a sheep bleeting that loudly.
Lupinus
Member
good. one or two might die, but they all wont
bill larry
Member
How bout some teachers that just say F-it, and carry anyway?
My dad taught middle school in San Antonio, Texas for thirty years before retiring and ALWAYS carried a gun on him (at school), even back when it was completely illegal in Texas to CC.
I for one have always been of the opinion that its better to ask forgiveness than permission. People should do what they gotta do to feel safe and stay alive.
My dad taught middle school in San Antonio, Texas for thirty years before retiring and ALWAYS carried a gun on him (at school), even back when it was completely illegal in Texas to CC.
I for one have always been of the opinion that its better to ask forgiveness than permission. People should do what they gotta do to feel safe and stay alive.
longeyes
member
I hear the new wisdom is to tell kids to "play dead." (This is the follow-on to "don't hit.")
Maybe that will be the political anthem for the New America that is being carefully crafted by the Left brick by brick.
So here come the candlelight vigils? It's all about grief control, not self-defense. The answer to a crazed gunman is a sane gunman.
Maybe that will be the political anthem for the New America that is being carefully crafted by the Left brick by brick.
So here come the candlelight vigils? It's all about grief control, not self-defense. The answer to a crazed gunman is a sane gunman.
rhino210
Member
Burleson Training cancelled
This Training was cancelled:
Link http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=20428
Texas Schools’ ‘Fight-Back Training’ Is Canceled After Media Slams
Written By: Mary Susan Littlepage
Published In: School Reform News
Publication Date: January 1, 2007
Publisher: The Heartland Institute
After school-invasion murders gripped national headlines, a school district near Dallas hired a group to teach students to fight back if they encounter a gunman. But they decided to drop the “fight-back training” segment in late October after receiving negative coverage by the national media.
Burleson Independent School District (BISD) hired Response Options, a Dallas-based company, to provide general school safety training, which included fight-back training. The latter included encouraging students to throw objects at armed intruders, knock them off balance, make as much noise as possible, lock onto an intruder’s limbs, and try to take intruders down.
Teachers, 650 freshmen, and some elementary school students in the 8,500-student district received the training.
But after a national media buzz, on October 20 the district sent students’ parents a letter stating “BISD does not, nor will we support teaching our students to attack an intruder.”
The letter, which said fight-back training “is not adopted by the district” and “BISD is pro-active in their efforts to make our schools as safe as possible,” was signed by Superintendent Mark Jackson; Richard Crummel, director of learning supports and public relations; and 10 of 11 principals in the BISD.
‘Organized Chaos’
Crummel did not return calls seeking comment, but Steve Kaufer, senior consultant for Inter/Action Associates, a California-based company that assesses and develops security programs for school districts, said fight-back training “was probably a good idea for faculty and staff, but not necessarily for students.” Kaufer said “the student training might be good” but he didn’t know all of the particulars of the fight-back training performed in Burleson.
“You don’t know [students’] level of maturity,” Kaufer said. “The area where students can be effective is providing information to the administration and teachers on campus.”
The training BISD proposed and originally accepted would have given all students from kindergarten through 12th grade safety training, including the fight-back training for those in 7th grade and above.
The Response Options Web site asks, “What do you do when the lockdown fails, and you are staring into the barrel of a gun waiting for the trigger to be pulled?” The group, which teaches that pro-active planning and preparation are the key to surviving a crisis, tells people not to sit and wait for rescue teams nor try to understand the attackers’ motives, but to take quick action and try to “get them off balance through the application of ‘organized chaos.’”
Tense Relationship
While BISD was teaching fight-back training to its incoming freshmen--for just one day in August--safety analysts believed it to be the only school district nationwide to do so.
Although the Associated Press quoted Crummel in an October 14 story as saying BISD doesn’t support fight-back training and that he wasn’t aware of it when hiring the group, Response Options spokesperson Robin Browne said that wasn’t true.
“The Burleson ISD both approved and supported the training we had been providing teachers since late 2004,” Browne said. “They had also approved, on September 26, 2006, advanced training for teachers and basic training for all 8,500 students [including the fight-back component] to start November 1.”
Browne said BISD staffers said they were keeping all aspects of safety training, except the fight-back segment. The administration, he said, still advocates throwing items and running away from armed intruders--just not physically engaging them.
“As very few classrooms have more than one entry/exit, [running away] is clearly ineffective and potentially fatal,” Browne said. “As a result of this posture, we have withdrawn from our agreement to provide further training, and Burleson ISD will be instructed that there will be legal ramifications, should they attempt to teach any of our syllabus independently.”
Good Publicity
Meanwhile, the media buzz surrounding BISD’s fight-back training has been good for business at Response Options.
“In the last month, more than 100 school districts, together with private schools, colleges, churches, hospitals, and law enforcement agencies, have requested further information or meetings,” Browne said in late October. “In the last week, we have met with officials representing more than 70 school districts in Texas alone.”
Browne said he has gotten mostly positive feedback about the training program from people in Burleson and around the country.
“Many self-styled ‘experts’ have been critical, but none has accepted our offer to provide them with information or training so they can talk from a position other than complete ignorance,” Browne said. Also, Browne said none of the critics he’s heard from so far has come up with any alternatives better than “run away, or hide and pray.”
Although Browne acknowledged it may be “unpleasant” for parents to think about their children fighting back against a school intruder, he said, “The only alternative is to ‘comply and die.’”
Mary Susan Littlepage ([email protected]) is a freelance writer in Chicago.
For more information ...
Response Options, http://www.responseoptions.com/
“Burleson school district clarifies its defense policy,” by Martha Deller, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, October 25, 2006, http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/15843537.htm
“Burleson students are taught to fight back against gunmen,” Associated Press, October 14, 2006, http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...rleson_14wes.ART0.North.Edition1.3e1572a.html
“Students are taught to fight intruders,” Fort Worth Star-Telegram, October 14, 2006, http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/15759624.htm
This Training was cancelled:
Link http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=20428
Texas Schools’ ‘Fight-Back Training’ Is Canceled After Media Slams
Written By: Mary Susan Littlepage
Published In: School Reform News
Publication Date: January 1, 2007
Publisher: The Heartland Institute
After school-invasion murders gripped national headlines, a school district near Dallas hired a group to teach students to fight back if they encounter a gunman. But they decided to drop the “fight-back training” segment in late October after receiving negative coverage by the national media.
Burleson Independent School District (BISD) hired Response Options, a Dallas-based company, to provide general school safety training, which included fight-back training. The latter included encouraging students to throw objects at armed intruders, knock them off balance, make as much noise as possible, lock onto an intruder’s limbs, and try to take intruders down.
Teachers, 650 freshmen, and some elementary school students in the 8,500-student district received the training.
But after a national media buzz, on October 20 the district sent students’ parents a letter stating “BISD does not, nor will we support teaching our students to attack an intruder.”
The letter, which said fight-back training “is not adopted by the district” and “BISD is pro-active in their efforts to make our schools as safe as possible,” was signed by Superintendent Mark Jackson; Richard Crummel, director of learning supports and public relations; and 10 of 11 principals in the BISD.
‘Organized Chaos’
Crummel did not return calls seeking comment, but Steve Kaufer, senior consultant for Inter/Action Associates, a California-based company that assesses and develops security programs for school districts, said fight-back training “was probably a good idea for faculty and staff, but not necessarily for students.” Kaufer said “the student training might be good” but he didn’t know all of the particulars of the fight-back training performed in Burleson.
“You don’t know [students’] level of maturity,” Kaufer said. “The area where students can be effective is providing information to the administration and teachers on campus.”
The training BISD proposed and originally accepted would have given all students from kindergarten through 12th grade safety training, including the fight-back training for those in 7th grade and above.
The Response Options Web site asks, “What do you do when the lockdown fails, and you are staring into the barrel of a gun waiting for the trigger to be pulled?” The group, which teaches that pro-active planning and preparation are the key to surviving a crisis, tells people not to sit and wait for rescue teams nor try to understand the attackers’ motives, but to take quick action and try to “get them off balance through the application of ‘organized chaos.’”
Tense Relationship
While BISD was teaching fight-back training to its incoming freshmen--for just one day in August--safety analysts believed it to be the only school district nationwide to do so.
Although the Associated Press quoted Crummel in an October 14 story as saying BISD doesn’t support fight-back training and that he wasn’t aware of it when hiring the group, Response Options spokesperson Robin Browne said that wasn’t true.
“The Burleson ISD both approved and supported the training we had been providing teachers since late 2004,” Browne said. “They had also approved, on September 26, 2006, advanced training for teachers and basic training for all 8,500 students [including the fight-back component] to start November 1.”
Browne said BISD staffers said they were keeping all aspects of safety training, except the fight-back segment. The administration, he said, still advocates throwing items and running away from armed intruders--just not physically engaging them.
“As very few classrooms have more than one entry/exit, [running away] is clearly ineffective and potentially fatal,” Browne said. “As a result of this posture, we have withdrawn from our agreement to provide further training, and Burleson ISD will be instructed that there will be legal ramifications, should they attempt to teach any of our syllabus independently.”
Good Publicity
Meanwhile, the media buzz surrounding BISD’s fight-back training has been good for business at Response Options.
“In the last month, more than 100 school districts, together with private schools, colleges, churches, hospitals, and law enforcement agencies, have requested further information or meetings,” Browne said in late October. “In the last week, we have met with officials representing more than 70 school districts in Texas alone.”
Browne said he has gotten mostly positive feedback about the training program from people in Burleson and around the country.
“Many self-styled ‘experts’ have been critical, but none has accepted our offer to provide them with information or training so they can talk from a position other than complete ignorance,” Browne said. Also, Browne said none of the critics he’s heard from so far has come up with any alternatives better than “run away, or hide and pray.”
Although Browne acknowledged it may be “unpleasant” for parents to think about their children fighting back against a school intruder, he said, “The only alternative is to ‘comply and die.’”
Mary Susan Littlepage ([email protected]) is a freelance writer in Chicago.
For more information ...
Response Options, http://www.responseoptions.com/
“Burleson school district clarifies its defense policy,” by Martha Deller, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, October 25, 2006, http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/15843537.htm
“Burleson students are taught to fight back against gunmen,” Associated Press, October 14, 2006, http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...rleson_14wes.ART0.North.Edition1.3e1572a.html
“Students are taught to fight intruders,” Fort Worth Star-Telegram, October 14, 2006, http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/15759624.htm
Man, does the government hate it when one is not totally dependent upon them or what?
If I am not mistaken, the Sheriffs are not legally bound to risk life and limb to save anyone from criminal harm as they are the reactive mop-up crew, especially in shooting sprees.
Schools teaching students livestock style compliance in the face of violence frankly upset me.
SWMAN
Member
Why is it that society will take a police recruits, run backgrounds checks on them, train them with firearms and send them forth to protect society, while the idea of an armed citizen with a police background check and training is deemed not adequate by many?
Idaho
Member
Yeah, good thing they cancelled that training - because this policy works so much better:
From Tech's Environmental Health and Safety Services website:
What to Do When Violence Occurs
* Try to stay calm. Raising your own voice may increase the anxiety of a potentially violent person.
* Speak slowly, softly, and clearly to reduce the momentum of the situation.
* Listen empathetically by really paying attention to what the person is saying. Let the person know that you will help them within your ability to do so or you will send for additional help.
* Do not agree using distorted statements or attempt to argue.
* Avoid defensive statements. This is not the time to place blame on the enraged person.
* Ask the belligerent person to leave the area and come back when they feel calmer.
* Ask questions to help regain control of the conversation.
* Ask uninvolved parties to leave the area if this can be done safely.
* Use the prearranged code word to alert your coworker(s) to call the Campus Police.
* Never challenge, try to bargain, or make promises you cannot keep.
* Describe the consequences of any violent behavior.
* Avoid challenging body language such as placing your hands on your hips, moving toward the person, or staring directly at them. If seated, remain in your chair and do not turn your back on the individual.
* Do not physically touch an outraged person, or try to force them to leave.
* Move away from any object, such as scissors or heavy objects that could be used as a weapon.
* Calmly ask the person to place any weapons in a neutral location while you continue to talk to them.
* Never attempt to disarm or accept a weapon from the person in question. Weapon retrieval should only be done by a police officer.
This event is sickening and tragic, but when will people learn that the only viable response to irrational violence is overwhelming force? Not only was the shooter assured a "gun-free victim zone" he also could anticipate that he continued response would merely be "there, there, please put the gun down." Makes me want to puke.
From Tech's Environmental Health and Safety Services website:
What to Do When Violence Occurs
* Try to stay calm. Raising your own voice may increase the anxiety of a potentially violent person.
* Speak slowly, softly, and clearly to reduce the momentum of the situation.
* Listen empathetically by really paying attention to what the person is saying. Let the person know that you will help them within your ability to do so or you will send for additional help.
* Do not agree using distorted statements or attempt to argue.
* Avoid defensive statements. This is not the time to place blame on the enraged person.
* Ask the belligerent person to leave the area and come back when they feel calmer.
* Ask questions to help regain control of the conversation.
* Ask uninvolved parties to leave the area if this can be done safely.
* Use the prearranged code word to alert your coworker(s) to call the Campus Police.
* Never challenge, try to bargain, or make promises you cannot keep.
* Describe the consequences of any violent behavior.
* Avoid challenging body language such as placing your hands on your hips, moving toward the person, or staring directly at them. If seated, remain in your chair and do not turn your back on the individual.
* Do not physically touch an outraged person, or try to force them to leave.
* Move away from any object, such as scissors or heavy objects that could be used as a weapon.
* Calmly ask the person to place any weapons in a neutral location while you continue to talk to them.
* Never attempt to disarm or accept a weapon from the person in question. Weapon retrieval should only be done by a police officer.
This event is sickening and tragic, but when will people learn that the only viable response to irrational violence is overwhelming force? Not only was the shooter assured a "gun-free victim zone" he also could anticipate that he continued response would merely be "there, there, please put the gun down." Makes me want to puke.
Lucky
Member
Thanks Rhino, that's bad news, but with a silver lining at the end. All the media hit-pieces just proved that no publicity is bad publicity.
Phyphor
Member
Pity....
...they couldn't include a baton next to the fire extinguisher for such emergencies... :banghead:
...they couldn't include a baton next to the fire extinguisher for such emergencies... :banghead:
scout26
Member
Hmmmm, perusing some of the advice/training offer to potential victims.
1) Young children (3-9 year olds) are taught to scream, cry, run, bite, kick, etc. when someone attempts to abduct them.
2) Women are told to scream, gouge, bite, scratch, use car keys, etc. to defend themselves from rapists.
3) Aircraft passengers are "encouraged" to help the crew fight potential hi-jackers/terrorists (see: Flight 93 and Richard Reid).
4) Evil person enters classroom and students are taught to behave like they just got off the train at Auschwitz.
Not my kids. Had a long talk with both of them (13 and 6 years old) tonight. Someone bad comes in, you fight back, instantly, I don't care what the school says. You start throwing things at the bad person and I bet others in you class will follow and throw things also. Then charge, your classmates, maybe not all but some, will follow. You have nothing to lose at that point. The bad person has already made the decision that someone is going to get hurt. Do everything you can to make it him that gets hurt: punch, kick, bite, pull hair, etc. and don't stop until he can no longer resist/move.
Imagine trying to shoot when 15-30+ kids (pick any age) are throwing books, pencils, backpacks, and everything else they can get their hands on at you. Then they rush you, even if they are, say 5 year olds, you may be able to fend off the first few but after they start biting all bets are off.
Plus how hard would it be to teach even very young ones ??? "If someone hurts the teacher or the teacher says "Attack" (or some other word), everyone go bite, kick, hit the "bad person".
1) Young children (3-9 year olds) are taught to scream, cry, run, bite, kick, etc. when someone attempts to abduct them.
2) Women are told to scream, gouge, bite, scratch, use car keys, etc. to defend themselves from rapists.
3) Aircraft passengers are "encouraged" to help the crew fight potential hi-jackers/terrorists (see: Flight 93 and Richard Reid).
4) Evil person enters classroom and students are taught to behave like they just got off the train at Auschwitz.
Not my kids. Had a long talk with both of them (13 and 6 years old) tonight. Someone bad comes in, you fight back, instantly, I don't care what the school says. You start throwing things at the bad person and I bet others in you class will follow and throw things also. Then charge, your classmates, maybe not all but some, will follow. You have nothing to lose at that point. The bad person has already made the decision that someone is going to get hurt. Do everything you can to make it him that gets hurt: punch, kick, bite, pull hair, etc. and don't stop until he can no longer resist/move.
Imagine trying to shoot when 15-30+ kids (pick any age) are throwing books, pencils, backpacks, and everything else they can get their hands on at you. Then they rush you, even if they are, say 5 year olds, you may be able to fend off the first few but after they start biting all bets are off.
Plus how hard would it be to teach even very young ones ??? "If someone hurts the teacher or the teacher says "Attack" (or some other word), everyone go bite, kick, hit the "bad person".
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