Interesting CCW shooting incident...

[jarhead]

Just last week, my brother-in-law (who is one of my closest friends) was walking his leashed German Shepherd and carrying a CCW Kahr 9mm… a very large Mastiff came agressively charging at them (somehow he got out of his owner’s fenced yard) and while it was obvious a fight was about to ensue, no way of knowing if the Mastiff was going after my brother-in-law or his dog (my guess is it was most likely his dog).

My brother-in-law is a retired Army Colonel and works for a very well known government agency (non-LEO, but due to the intelligence nature requires top level security clearance) so he is quite respectable and cool-headed… he fired at the Mastiff several times, but missed (I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt that he was firing one-handed and simultaneously trying to control a 120lb excited German Shepherd... but being a former Marine, I endlessly rag him about it anyway).

Now I feel that “normally”, this would have been a fairly clear-cut incident that would have no consequence to the licensed CCW holder defending himself – BUT, a series of circumstances came into play that I think may have made it much more difficult for him than it needed to be…

• He properly called 911 and of the six officers that arrived, all were not of the same race as my brother-in-law (please take no offense to this, none is intended in the least), obviously this is no issue and he couldn’t care less – except his dog had a strong tendency to become very aggressive towards other races (not “attacking”, just aggressive barking and teeth baring – which I’m sure police officers enjoy being on the receiving end and will always serve to warm relations)… my brother was forced to take his dog home to remove him from the situation and then return to finish discussing the incident with the responding officers – STRIKE 1;

• The matter was turned over to a detective to look into, and the detective called my brother-in-law and asked him to come down to the station to make a statement… my brother-in-law advised the detective that he did not wish to come down to the station, but that if the detective would come to his house he would ensure that his attorney was present and he would be happy to answer any questions from the detective (while this was fully his right, he was not making any friends with the detective I’m sure) – STRIKE 2;

• The detective called him back and said that he would meet him at his home at 6:30pm the next day and asked that since his attorney would be present, he would like to bring his Captain along to sit in on the questioning. My brother-in-law advised the detective that he would prefer that the Captain did not come, that the detective came by himself to meet with him and his attorney (again, no doubt that was within his rights… but again I have no doubt that he wasn’t making a friend out of the detective) – STRIKE 3;
  

• At the appointed time – 6:30pm the following day, a police car pulled up at my brother-in-law’s home and two uniformed officers came to the door with a warrant for his arrest for disorderly conduct and discharge of a firearm within city limits…

Again, I love my brother-in-law dearly… but I feel that the whole mess would have very likely been avoided had he handled things differently…

My father was a judge for almost 40 years and he used to always say – “Sometimes right & wrong doesn’t have anything to do with it”.

I just thought that this might be a learning experience for others if they find themselves in a similar situation…

 

[Pweller]

That 'disorderly conduct' charge seems to be a catch-all to me. I don't know the exact legal definition, but it seems to be the same as being charged with pissing off the police. I wonder how many of those charges actually stick.

Thanks for sharing the story.

 

[rainbowbob]

I feel that the whole mess would have very likely been avoided had he handled things differently…

As to "strike 1": He couldn't change his dog's personality.

As to "strike 2": It would not have been advisable to go to the station and make a statement without his attorney present.

As to "strike 3": He might have agreed to have the Captain present at the interview in his home - but I don't see how that would have made much difference.


So...what should he have done differently? What would you have done differently?

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Sounds like a bunch of junk to me.

 

[Deanimator]

1. In situations involving the law, one would be a fool not to seek and use competent legal counsel.
2. In any such situation, the police are NOT your friends. It is an adversarial relationship and you treat it otherwise at your peril.
3. As long as the lawyer is there, I don't see a problem with the captain being there.

This seems like an attempt to intimidate. If he has competent legal representation and he obeyed the law in the original incident, it will almost certainly be an unsuccessful attempt.

 

[JCisHe]

I wouldn't have shot at the mastiff unless it did come after me and I had the marks to prove it. That was a bad idea. I mean, its somebody's dog and a little tussle between dogs is no big deal. They LIVE that way. Imagine the little kid who finds out his dog is dead. It was a bad idea from the start.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

a little tussle between dogs is no big deal.


never seen two big dogs fight? it can be a real big deal

 

[TexasRifleman]

My father was a judge for almost 40 years and he used to always say – “Sometimes right & wrong doesn’t have anything to do with it”.

I just thought that this might be a learning experience for others if they find themselves in a similar situation…

And sometimes doing the right thing is harder than taking the easy way out.

I can't find fault with any of the things he did after the shooting occurred.


I suspect he will be able to beat the DC charge. Let us know.

 

[JCisHe]

Cass, I have a pitbull, I rescued her from idiots, and believe me I've seen dogs right. It's mostly "scary" more so than hurtful. The dogs get a little angry, go at it a bit, and then it's over. Like I said, in nature that's how they decide who is who. It's normal for them. We're the ones who have the problem with it.

That mastiff was just doing his thing. I wouldn't have done anything accept try to separate them and then if that dog bit me I would have shot it. That way there is no question of malicious intent. At least that's way I see it. I'm not afraid of dogs though. I've seen grown men act like sissies because their dogs were fighting when all they had to do was yell, reach in and grab the collars, and then kick one of the dogs in the side after throwing them away from each other. The one runs and the other knows its in trouble.

 

[COMPNOR]

So what happened to the Mastiff? Did he actually hit it and kill it or did it run off? Was this like right outside the house or a few houses away that owned the Mastiff, or did this dog just coming charging out of nowhere?

 

[DHJenkins]

As to "strike 1": He couldn't change his dog's personality.

No, but he could have taken the dog home while the police were en route. As so many like to point out, the police can take a while to respond. (I'm assuming from the story he didn't actually kill/wound the dog)

As to "strike 2": It would not have been advisable to go to the station and make a statement without his attorney present.

No, but he could have gone to the station to make a statement with his attorney present.

As to "strike 3": He might have agreed to have the Captain present at the interview in his home - but I don't see how that would have made much difference.

There would have been no strike 3 had he made his statement with his attorney at the station.

 

[jarhead]

COMPNOR – he shot five times and he said “I’m positive I hit it”… the owner told him the next day that “he’s fine, not a scratch on him” – I actually think that was the most humiliating part for him, that he shot five times and didn’t hit him.

The Mastiff was 3-4 houses down from his owner, my brother-in-law was on the sidewalk when the dog came out of nowhere. From what I understand, Mastiff’s aren’t know to be typically aggressive dogs unless provoked – which makes me wonder if it was a territorial thing with another big dog being around.

It’s interesting, and one of the things that I really like about this forum, is that I usually see a lot of different trains of thought and viewpoints on issues – after reading many of the comments, it has changed my thinking quite a bit that everything he did “post shooting” was the right way to handle it and if I had been in his shoes, likely would have done the same things he did in that situation.

 

[TexasRifleman]

It’s interesting, and one of the things that I really like about this forum, is that I usually see a lot of different trains of thought and viewpoints on issues – after reading many of the comments, it has changed my thinking quite a bit that everything he did “post shooting” was the right way to handle it and if I had been in his shoes, likely would have done the same things he did in that situation.

I think you do have a valid point, that he took almost a confrontational attitude with the police. If he had not done that things might have been different certainly.

But, his gut feeling to not speak without a lawyer present is spot on.

No good can come of speaking to LE about your possible involvement in a crime without a lawyer there.

I bet he beats the rap though, disorderly conduct is pretty flimsy in a shooting where no one was hurt, only an animal was shot at in self defense, and (it sounds like anyway) no other citizens complained.

 

[DCR]

I'm going to call it like I've seen it before: this is a power trip by LEO's and the prosecutor.

Your brother-in-law:
(1) failed the "attitude test" because he exercised his rights
(2) is being charged with the offenses he is because of #1
(3) is being bullied by the police and prosecutor in that they could have issued him a citation, or even a summons, but instead sought an arrest warrant to punish him by handcuffing him, escorting him from his home in front of his neighbors, booking him, and forcing him to pay a bond to get out. He posed no flight risk, especially for two minor misdemeanors, and they are not violent offenses or ones where there is a statutory requirement to arrest, much less a viable reason for having a "shall arrest" local LE policy.

They're jacking him around as punishment for exercising his rights. Unfortunately, he's going to have to pay an attorney a lot to fight this case, and has no recourse against the LEO's or prosecutor for filing bogus charges or seeking an arrest warrant instead of a citation or summons.

All he can do is wait until the case is over with, then win the court of public opinion by pointing out the utter pig-headedness of the authorities through the press, radio and/or TV. Especially around election time.

Best wishes to him.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

The dogs get a little angry, go at it a bit, and then it's over.

wish you were there to explain that to the dogs i've seen killed. other than your pit rescue how many dogs have you had? i've got a dog aggresive female husky lab mix. i've laid out a couple grand for the chewing shes done on my other dogs. shes not even 70 pounds. shes killed 2 other dogs that i know of and a couple dozen coyotes. though last 4-5 years i need to put some lead in the yotes before she can catch em.

 

[danbrew]

I'd be busting his chops about missing five times. I mean, ****, five times?

Sounds like it will end fairly well for him and I'd bet he can beat the DC charge. What he should be thinking about it what if it was his kid or grandkid instead of his dog? Then it really would matter that he missed five times. In such a situation, I think he needs to plan on getting close to the dog and putting the muzzle to his chest and firing off a round. He'll undoubtedly have marks to back up his story.

I'm a huge dog lover, btw. And would do just about anything else other than shooting the dog - but if came down to my kid or the dog? Or me and the dog? "Hi'ya St Pete, Rover's at the front gate and wants in."

 

[MedWheeler]

Not that I'm saying anything should have been done differently, since I was not there, but I believe that a better outcome would have occurred if the attacking dog had actually been hit, and that the police had been called immediately thereafter. Hitting the attacking dog would have made the "fear for my safety" argument more believable. Missing that many times, though quite possible. requires post-shooting convincing that the intent was to hit the target, and not to simply shoot of rounds to run the dog off.

 

[cambeul41]

I mean, its somebody's dog and a little tussle between dogs is no big deal. They LIVE that way. Imagine the little kid who finds out his dog is dead.

In case you don't know it, there is a difference between "a little tussle" and a murderous attack. A dog attack can be incredibly fast. Do you think you can distinguish which is which in time? If you are wrong, the result can be the death of one that you love.

As one whose dog was mauled by two pit bulls not long ago -- right in front of my wife -- you don't know what you are talking about. She couldn't get a shot off for fear of hitting bystanders. Fortunately one of them leaped in to the rescue.

Lots of vet bills later, our dog has recovered; you imagine my wife's having to witness the murder of her beloved pet!

Oh, the pit bulls' owner considers the mauling to be "normal dog behavior." While promising to pay, she fails to do so. Yeah, It's lawyer time. We will request that she 1) make us whole, 2) cover legal fees, and 3) make a substantial donation to the local Humane Society.

 

[t165]

Hello jarhead! I was curious if there were any other witnesses to this incident? Was the owner of the Mastiff charged with violating any leash laws because the dog was loose and off his property? I wasn't there and cannot say what I would or would not have done. My sister had a HUGE mastiff that was friendly to people but killed other dogs. His name was Rex and he had a mouth and set of teeth like a T-Rex. My nephew would ride him like a horse. Rex was well over 150lbs. I would not want him chewing on me.

I have a cousin named Bobby who was bitten by a St. Bernard when he was 11-12 years old. His scalp and ear were almost ripped off his head and dangling. The dog has his head in his mouth and shook him like a rag. It took over 100 stitches to sew him back together. he spent many days in the hospital and the doctors thought there might have been brain damage. His scalp was penetrated. Dogs kill and maim people. In Indiana it is a state law that dog bites have to be reported to the police. Indiana law firms have even advertised on TV urging individuals to contact them if they have been the victim of a dog bite...must be some money in it. I'm not sure where your brother-in-law lives but Indiana has a "duress" statute which protects individuals from otherwise illegal actions.

 

[pbearperry]

A $5 can of pepper spray would have been the best solution.

 

[rbernie]

Any more discussion about whether to shoot Fido will get the thread locked. We've been through that topic a million times, and there's plenty of material to search on if anyone wants to read it.

This discussion should be about the legalities and options for defending yourself against uncontrolled animals within city limits.

 

[rgwalt]

Jarhead, I hope your brother-in-law beats the rap. I am more interested in how this incident will effect his situation with his employer. What impact does an arrest record have on a security clearance?

 

[DutchmanDick]

A $5 can of pepper spray would have been the best solution.

I've never had much luck with pepper spray against dogs. When I go out walking with my kids, I always carry a gen-you-wine blackthorn shillelagh as my walking stick - it's great for walkin' or whackin'. If all else fails, there's always the Colt #3 derringer at contact or near contact range...

 

[t165]

Sorry about the double post. This is the only internet forum I visit where I have this problem...can't figure it out.

 

[green-grizzly]

I agree with what others have said about it being a good idea to pack less lethal alternatives. The pistol is a last resort.