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The wonderful power of propaganda. How well, and if, these people performed in a horrible nasty war is far outweighed by the political value of pictures and stories of common men overcoming obstacles and young women taking up the cause. Did these people fight? Maybe yes, maybe no. Did it change the course of war? Again, maybe. But optics and politics goes much further in keeping the general public engaged and supportive even in crushing political systems. Even today we see tons of this stuff around the world. The US doesn't have all-women combat units parading in squares but an afwul lot of other countries sure do.
 
fpgt72, your history doesn't quite match my history of WW II.

Well,

in fact fpgt72 `s descrition of the development of central eastern Europe between the beginning of the 20ies of the last century is pretty dead on.

How would one describe the time of let´s say 1919 until 1939 in Poland, Ukraine, Finnland, Germany, Sowjet Union, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, (Silesia), Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia?
A collective "cumba ya", love and peace era until the luckless Austrian painter suddenly and out of nowhere started to trample down most of Europe in his Nazi boots?
CERTAINLY NOT.

History is alwasy written by the winners, in this case co-written by serial killer and dictator Josip Stalin.
But asking a Polish guy/ girl in the know about him/ her countries history will reveal lots of stinkystinky on/from their eastern border. "Invaded, supressed and mass murdered for their own protection" would be a good description for bad actions coming from the east.
Poland was invaded, supressed and mass murders taking place from the western border, too, there is no denying that.
The results of both invasions were disastrous.

But one side was applauded, the other condemned, which seems both immoral and downright dumb...but the "History of WWII in 10 sentences" was also written by Stalin, as I already pointed out.
So this is a very important fact to always remember, to never forget and to remind us all to always check manufactured history against REAL history.

The word "propaganda" has been used in this thread quite a number of times...but still not often enough for my taste.

You all stay alert and stay alive
Carsten
 
The wonderful power of propaganda. How well, and if, these people performed in a horrible nasty war is far outweighed by the political value of pictures and stories of common men overcoming obstacles and young women taking up the cause. Did these people fight? Maybe yes, maybe no. Did it change the course of war? Again, maybe. But optics and politics goes much further in keeping the general public engaged and supportive even in crushing political systems. Even today we see tons of this stuff around the world. The US doesn't have all-women combat units parading in squares but an afwul lot of other countries sure do.

Remember that girl Jessica Lynch that was captured early in the Iraq war and it dominated the new coverage for a month? Remember how many people got wrapped up in that and how everyone was rooting for her to get saved? Did you wonder at the time why the army decided to make one soldier being captured a national media circus? We are pretty good at distraction and propaganda too.
 
the common Russian soldier was cannon fodder and stalin used them as such in many ways. the US lend lease program kept the Russian going until the germans were worn down by too many fronts and poor resupply lines-reinforcements.
 
I had the pleasure some 25 years ago to talk to one of my German Relatives, as well as 2 of his friends who served on the Eastern Front in WWII against the Soviets. My relative, a Great Uncle, was an engineer, and was transferred to frontline service shorty after the large Soviet counterattack that ended the Stalingrad fight and set the Germans on the defensive. One of the other men was an artilleryman in the same theater and the other was a German Sniper on the Northern front from Leningrad through the withdrawal into the Baltics where he was wounded and sent to the rear. I was very interested in sniping history at the time and asked them about this aspect in particular. All 3 said the Soviet snipers were feared not so much for their marksmanship, but for their numbers and fieldcraft. They operated rather autonomously, often infiltrating behind enemy lines with the help of civilians or partizans to target support or command units. Apparently special bounties were offered for these targets, as special bounties were offered on the German side for killing or capturing snipers and political officers. Also female snipers were very real, and would infiltrate in civilian clothes as refugees, or even come into camp as camp followers and trade "favors" for intelligence. By the account of all 3, it was a very brutal and total war, with all the Hague and Geneva rules tossed to the ravens.
 
"The Deadliest Snipers Of World War II
Jun 20, 2017 Lincoln Riddle

View attachment 831093
Finnish Ski Troops During the Winter War

SHARE:FacebookTwitter


Highly trained and deadly, snipers are and have been an important aspect of warfare. The term, however, first came into use in British India in the 1700s and was used for hunting the snipe bird, which was highly elusive. Today a sniper is someone who is a highly skilled sharpshooter.

Snipers were deployed as early as the American Revolution. They also saw action in World War 1, usually in the trenches.

View attachment 831094
US Marines practicing with sniper rifles.
World War II was a different war in all regards and snipers were no exception, especially in the Soviet Union. It would appear the Soviets mastered the craft as most of this top 10 list of deadliest snipers of that war is composed of Soviet snipers.

Report Advertisement
10. Stepan Vasilievich Petrenko-USSR
A Ukranian Senior Sergeant, Stephan was a skilled marksman compiling 422 kills. In 1945, Petrenko was given the Hero of the Soviet Union Award, one of the highest prizes earned regarding heroic accomplishment in the USSR. Petrenko lived from 1922 to 1984.

9. Vasilij Ivanovich Golosov-USSR
Tied with Petrenko at 422 kills, Golosov was an expert marksman. He earned the Distinguished Sniper Award during the war. This is given to snipers who have killed more than 50 people. In total, 261 soldiers were granted this award by the USSR. That number includes both men and women as the Soviet Union had more than 2,000 female snipers. It is believed that of his 422 kills, around 70 were snipers he killed in battle.

8. Fyodor Trofimovich Dyachenko-USSR
The Soviet Red Army trained more than 400,000 people as snipers, although only approximately 9,000 went on to receive higher training. Dyachenko was one of those, and he excelled, killing 425 during the war. His primary goal was to kill officers that would be difficult to replace, and because of his efforts, he received a Distinguished Service Cross from the USSR.

7. Fyodor Matveyevich Okhlopkov-USSR
View attachment 831095
The part of Russia he was from is indicated in red. At the time, it was the USSR. His village was located in the center of this red region. Author: Marmelad – CC BY-SA 2.5
Okhlopkov’s story and the path to his 429 kills are interesting. As the story goes, both Oklhopkov and his brother joined the military. They were Yakut, which is an ethnicity found in the northern part of Russia. Apparently, his brother was killed early in the war. From then Oklhopkov dedicated everything to avenging his brother’s death. In the process, he killed 429 people while sniping, and more in regular combat. He went on to win several high ranking awards and had a ship named after him in 1974, which he did not see as he died in 1968.

Report Advertisement
Okhlopkov suffered many combat wounds, including one to the chest which almost took his life. The incident occurred in 1944 and put an end to his military service. It is estimated he killed more than 1,000 people during World War II using a variety of weapons.

6. Mikhail Ivanovich Budenkov-USSR
Budenkov raked in 437 kills in his time as a sniper, becoming a motivation for other aspiring snipers. He was a Russian sergeant and utilized both his sniper rifle and other weapons in combat. His 437 kills take into account only those killed while sniping.

5. Vladimir Nikolaevich Pchelintsev-USSR
At number five with 456 kills is Vladimir Pchelintsev. He knew the lands he fought on very well, allowing him to succeed as opposed to soldiers who were not familiar with the area. Many of his kills, however, cannot be confirmed for varying reasons.

4. Ivan Nikolayevich Kulbertinov- USSR
While Kulbertinov did not experience as much critical acclaim for his work, he is fourth on the list of deadliest snipers. With 489 kills, he is only 53 kills behind the number one. He did not receive attention as he was often working around or near the highly celebrated female sniper, Lyudmila Pavlichenko, who had more than 300 sniper kills.

3. Nikolay Yakovlevich Ilyin- USSR
Ilyin had 494 confirmed kills. A locksmith before the war, he had to work hard to get to sniper level after joining the Red Army. He got most of his kills during the Battle of Stalingrad. Ilyin died in combat in 1943, and would later earn several high ranking awards once the war had ended in 1945, for his efforts.

2. Ivan Mikhailovich Sidorenko-USSR
Ivan had about 500 kills during the war. He had more kills than anyone else from the Soviet Union. Before joining the military, Sidorenko studied art and went to college. He dropped out of college and became a member of the Red Army. He had no proper training in sniping and taught himself in the early part of the war. During the war, he once used incendiary bullets (bullets that can cause fires) to destroy three vehicles and a tank.

Sometime in 1944, Sidorenko was injured. He spent his remaining military time as an instructor, teaching young snipers how to be more accurate.

1. Simo Häyhä-Finland
View attachment 831096

Report Advertisement
The most deadly sniper of World War II: Simo Häyhä. He had 542 confirmed kills, with an unconfirmed total number of 705. Not only is he the most deadly sniper of World War II, but he is also believed to be the most deadly sniper of all time.

All his kills were against the Red Army, who nicknamed him White Death.

View attachment 831097
Hayha in the 1940s sometime after being shot in the face.
Häyhä wore white camouflage, to match his environment, the snow. He would even keep snow in his mouth, believing the steam produced from his mouth could fog up his scope, causing issues. He was shot in the war, which disfigured his face, but he lived to be 96, only dying in 2002.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/forgotten-blitz-scotland-left-thousands-dead-b-2.html "

Regards,
hps
Simo had a target rich environment.
 
fpgt72, your history doesn't quite match my history of WW II. Granted, I was only eleven years old when the war ended.

VJ night on Times Square was a time of great happiness, I observed. :)

Enlighten me.....

I guess I should have said 20's and poland vs the red army.....I tend to error when the talk of the soviets come up....put point out another error please.
 
"The Deadliest Snipers Of World War II
Jun 20, 2017 Lincoln Riddle

View attachment 831093
Finnish Ski Troops During the Winter War

SHARE:FacebookTwitter


Highly trained and deadly, snipers are and have been an important aspect of warfare. The term, however, first came into use in British India in the 1700s and was used for hunting the snipe bird, which was highly elusive. Today a sniper is someone who is a highly skilled sharpshooter.

Snipers were deployed as early as the American Revolution. They also saw action in World War 1, usually in the trenches.

View attachment 831094
US Marines practicing with sniper rifles.
World War II was a different war in all regards and snipers were no exception, especially in the Soviet Union. It would appear the Soviets mastered the craft as most of this top 10 list of deadliest snipers of that war is composed of Soviet snipers.

Report Advertisement
10. Stepan Vasilievich Petrenko-USSR
A Ukranian Senior Sergeant, Stephan was a skilled marksman compiling 422 kills. In 1945, Petrenko was given the Hero of the Soviet Union Award, one of the highest prizes earned regarding heroic accomplishment in the USSR. Petrenko lived from 1922 to 1984.

9. Vasilij Ivanovich Golosov-USSR
Tied with Petrenko at 422 kills, Golosov was an expert marksman. He earned the Distinguished Sniper Award during the war. This is given to snipers who have killed more than 50 people. In total, 261 soldiers were granted this award by the USSR. That number includes both men and women as the Soviet Union had more than 2,000 female snipers. It is believed that of his 422 kills, around 70 were snipers he killed in battle.

8. Fyodor Trofimovich Dyachenko-USSR
The Soviet Red Army trained more than 400,000 people as snipers, although only approximately 9,000 went on to receive higher training. Dyachenko was one of those, and he excelled, killing 425 during the war. His primary goal was to kill officers that would be difficult to replace, and because of his efforts, he received a Distinguished Service Cross from the USSR.

7. Fyodor Matveyevich Okhlopkov-USSR
View attachment 831095
The part of Russia he was from is indicated in red. At the time, it was the USSR. His village was located in the center of this red region. Author: Marmelad – CC BY-SA 2.5
Okhlopkov’s story and the path to his 429 kills are interesting. As the story goes, both Oklhopkov and his brother joined the military. They were Yakut, which is an ethnicity found in the northern part of Russia. Apparently, his brother was killed early in the war. From then Oklhopkov dedicated everything to avenging his brother’s death. In the process, he killed 429 people while sniping, and more in regular combat. He went on to win several high ranking awards and had a ship named after him in 1974, which he did not see as he died in 1968.

Report Advertisement
Okhlopkov suffered many combat wounds, including one to the chest which almost took his life. The incident occurred in 1944 and put an end to his military service. It is estimated he killed more than 1,000 people during World War II using a variety of weapons.

6. Mikhail Ivanovich Budenkov-USSR
Budenkov raked in 437 kills in his time as a sniper, becoming a motivation for other aspiring snipers. He was a Russian sergeant and utilized both his sniper rifle and other weapons in combat. His 437 kills take into account only those killed while sniping.

5. Vladimir Nikolaevich Pchelintsev-USSR
At number five with 456 kills is Vladimir Pchelintsev. He knew the lands he fought on very well, allowing him to succeed as opposed to soldiers who were not familiar with the area. Many of his kills, however, cannot be confirmed for varying reasons.

4. Ivan Nikolayevich Kulbertinov- USSR
While Kulbertinov did not experience as much critical acclaim for his work, he is fourth on the list of deadliest snipers. With 489 kills, he is only 53 kills behind the number one. He did not receive attention as he was often working around or near the highly celebrated female sniper, Lyudmila Pavlichenko, who had more than 300 sniper kills.

3. Nikolay Yakovlevich Ilyin- USSR
Ilyin had 494 confirmed kills. A locksmith before the war, he had to work hard to get to sniper level after joining the Red Army. He got most of his kills during the Battle of Stalingrad. Ilyin died in combat in 1943, and would later earn several high ranking awards once the war had ended in 1945, for his efforts.

2. Ivan Mikhailovich Sidorenko-USSR
Ivan had about 500 kills during the war. He had more kills than anyone else from the Soviet Union. Before joining the military, Sidorenko studied art and went to college. He dropped out of college and became a member of the Red Army. He had no proper training in sniping and taught himself in the early part of the war. During the war, he once used incendiary bullets (bullets that can cause fires) to destroy three vehicles and a tank.

Sometime in 1944, Sidorenko was injured. He spent his remaining military time as an instructor, teaching young snipers how to be more accurate.

1. Simo Häyhä-Finland
View attachment 831096

Report Advertisement
The most deadly sniper of World War II: Simo Häyhä. He had 542 confirmed kills, with an unconfirmed total number of 705. Not only is he the most deadly sniper of World War II, but he is also believed to be the most deadly sniper of all time.

All his kills were against the Red Army, who nicknamed him White Death.

View attachment 831097
Hayha in the 1940s sometime after being shot in the face.
Häyhä wore white camouflage, to match his environment, the snow. He would even keep snow in his mouth, believing the steam produced from his mouth could fog up his scope, causing issues. He was shot in the war, which disfigured his face, but he lived to be 96, only dying in 2002.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/forgotten-blitz-scotland-left-thousands-dead-b-2.html "

Regards,
hps


No scope....Irons from what I read....and that makes him even more bad.....oops almost said a naughty word again.....
 
Well,

in fact fpgt72 `s descrition of the development of central eastern Europe between the beginning of the 20ies of the last century is pretty dead on.

How would one describe the time of let´s say 1919 until 1939 in Poland, Ukraine, Finnland, Germany, Sowjet Union, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, (Silesia), Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia?
A collective "cumba ya", love and peace era until the luckless Austrian painter suddenly and out of nowhere started to trample down most of Europe in his Nazi boots?
CERTAINLY NOT.

History is alwasy written by the winners, in this case co-written by serial killer and dictator Josip Stalin.
But asking a Polish guy/ girl in the know about him/ her countries history will reveal lots of stinkystinky on/from their eastern border. "Invaded, supressed and mass murdered for their own protection" would be a good description for bad actions coming from the east.
Poland was invaded, supressed and mass murders taking place from the western border, too, there is no denying that.
The results of both invasions were disastrous.

But one side was applauded, the other condemned, which seems both immoral and downright dumb...but the "History of WWII in 10 sentences" was also written by Stalin, as I already pointed out.
So this is a very important fact to always remember, to never forget and to remind us all to always check manufactured history against REAL history.

The word "propaganda" has been used in this thread quite a number of times...but still not often enough for my taste.

You all stay alert and stay alive
Carsten


WOW.....how refreshing to hear from someone that has read a few books and not got everything off of a 3 minute youtube video.

We need to sit down and have a beer.....I think we would have a lot to talk about.....and I extend an invite out to anyone else that would like to know the real truth of the soviets.

I am waiting for someone to sing the praises of Pol Pot next.

Also make no mistake the west was responsible for the soviets winning in the east.....if not for the west it would have ended the same way it ended in WWI. Western....I was going to say engineers....but really more then that. Came over and really helped that country get going again. We all have likely read how the soviets picked up the factories and moved them east of the Ural mountains....well who did that planning....hell IIRC a Brit and American laid out the "tractor factory" at stalingrad. That factory was western designed and planned.....again the west trying to make good for helping out the white russians and the czechs during their civil war....along with a lot of the other "fringe" groups that all fought for control of the country.

Eh I am rambling.....and I doubt most will read it, as people have their mind made up by our education system that has hammered into their minds that the commies are really good guys.

I suggest you do some looking into russian history (not going to say soviet) after they backed out of WWI to.....eh mid 1930's should do, you will learn things you never knew about.

Then do some reading on just how the soviets acted in the Baltic countries....everyone seems to know of finland, that is popular but the others that Carsten pointed out get quickly forgotten. Also look to their actions in the far east...and the soviet actions against Japan.....that stuff will really make you go huh....eh....what....you have to be kidding me.
 
The wonderful power of propaganda. How well, and if, these people performed in a horrible nasty war is far outweighed by the political value of pictures and stories of common men overcoming obstacles and young women taking up the cause. Did these people fight? Maybe yes, maybe no. Did it change the course of war? Again, maybe. But optics and politics goes much further in keeping the general public engaged and supportive even in crushing political systems. Even today we see tons of this stuff around the world. The US doesn't have all-women combat units parading in squares but an afwul lot of other countries sure do.

Women did fight in that war....there is no question to that.....now if you are asking if these specific females fought....that will take someone with more time to figure out.

There is a famous quote.....well a bunch of them....from a female sniper that came to the US. When asked by the first lady how she killed so many men, she responded that she did not kill men...only facists. That should tell you all you need to know.....oh and did you know that Eleanor Roosevelt did not have to change her last name when she married FDR.....yup she was TR's brothers, daughter.....so it is ok to be kissing cousins I guess....be they 5th cousins that is still a bit creepy.

Eh I think I have wondered enough on this thread, I am betting it will get locked down as many of the really informative and helpful threads around her seem to do.....hope some of you get to read the post before the mods censor it.
 
Remember that this website is about the promotion of responsible use of firearms and the exchange of useful/helpful information about them.

Some thread drift from time to time is okay, but this one has already gone beyond appropriate limits. So let's stick to comments about the rifles and how the snipers were assigned or used.
 
Germany never had a chance of winning a war against the west, If germany had taken a path like they did in Austria/Czech/pick your country.....with Poland the world would be a very different place....The USSR was not a good place or a friendly people.....just ask the Finns.....or the Poles after the soviets invaded poland......hay wait a sec....why did the west go to war against Germany.....they invaded....who......Oh I remember POLAND......and then the Soviets went to war against who after they bashed the Finns.....oh yea Poland.......and then what happened.....oh yea, they went after Estonia and the other Baltic countries.....and what did the west do.....oh yea we sent them planes, tanks, trucks.....and a metric <removed> ton of fuel to keep all that running......I guess it is a reward for being just as bad as the german leader......and old uncle Joe was all too keen to jump on the Poles after they smashed him up and made him look like a total idiot in the 30's.....uncle joe hated the Poles, no doubt about that.....and any excuse to kill a few million of them and hit the delete button on their country was just fine.....after all they are buddy buddy with hitler, and the west is not going to mess with the both of them right.

Take the west out of WWII, and we would have been sending germany tons of goodies to kill the commies, we might have even tried a polar bear type deal again......but no....

To this day the russians get a pass......be they attacking a country out of the blue, think Ukarine....or blowing an airliner out of the sky (think malaysia) the world does not want to tick off the russians.....and like small children they will keep pushing the limits to see just what they can get away with.

And yes you are correct....I do think that country needs to be handed a massive smack down.

Winston Churchill said he would recommend the devil himself to the House of Commons if he came out against Hitler. Yes, everything you say about the nastiness of the Soviets and Stalin is correct, but we needed them. When we invaded France in '44, we faced sixty German divisions. Three hundred Germans were tied down in the East at the time. Some commentators have suggested that we should have stayed out of it, supplied whichever side appeared to be losing at the time, and let the Nazis and the Stalinists destroy each other. Nice thought, but without our help, Hitler would have most likely won against Russia. Were it not for his strategic errors, and had he listened to his generals, he might have won anyway.

Horrible as they were, we needed the Soviets. This young women in the picture, were just young women, as decent as young women anywhere, and they paid a terrible price. Books like the War of the Rats suggest these Russian rifles were superior to the German Mauser. That's ridiculous.
 
Winston Churchill said he would recommend the devil himself to the House of Commons if he came out against Hitler. Yes, everything you say about the nastiness of the Soviets and Stalin is correct, but we needed them. When we invaded France in '44, we faced sixty German divisions. Three hundred Germans were tied down in the East at the time. Some commentators have suggested that we should have stayed out of it, supplied whichever side appeared to be losing at the time, and let the Nazis and the Stalinists destroy each other. Nice thought, but without our help, Hitler would have most likely won against Russia. Were it not for his strategic errors, and had he listened to his generals, he might have won anyway.

Horrible as they were, we needed the Soviets. This young women in the picture, were just young women, as decent as young women anywhere, and they paid a terrible price. Books like the War of the Rats suggest these Russian rifles were superior to the German Mauser. That's ridiculous.

Agree......however.....and you know there would be a however, and as we are playing the what if game. If the pact between the soviets and germans held together.......along with the Japanese.

In my view hitler/stalin, two sides of the exact same coin.

If Hitler would have cooled his heals a little bit.....and it would only take a little bit, the world would be different, Soviets already walking all over Finland, and the world was pretty PO'ed over that.....see FDR's Speach on that one.

And to tie this back around to our snipers so the Mod does not loose his cookies.....

I really think this has a lot to do with soviet female snipers/pilots....we really did not see them in numbers in other roles.....like tank drivers....guess they could not swing the hammer hard enough to change gears....but in these small and special units they did excel. There is more then one report that says the female snipers are much better then the male, more calm, calculated, and I guess I would say cold heart.....anyone with a girlfriend/wife that has been angry with you knows you do not want a woman ticked off at you (man it is so hard to not type some words....I am trying to be good) These people are so much better as a great many tasks then men are.....I guess that is ok, you just can't say men are better then women at some things :).

I am not sure I would go as far to say without the soviets germany would have won the war.....it might have taken longer, and I am sure the soviets would have pulled something like what they did with Japan at the end...I will agree it would have taken longer. Now if you want to go so far into the weeds and start changing german doctrine....perhaps we should start a new thread.

But this is fun talking this stuff.
 
Agree......however.....and you know there would be a however, and as we are playing the what if game. If the pact between the soviets and germans held together.......along with the Japanese.

In my view hitler/stalin, two sides of the exact same coin.

If Hitler would have cooled his heals a little bit.....and it would only take a little bit, the world would be different, Soviets already walking all over Finland, and the world was pretty PO'ed over that.....see FDR's Speach on that one.

And to tie this back around to our snipers so the Mod does not loose his cookies.....

I really think this has a lot to do with soviet female snipers/pilots....we really did not see them in numbers in other roles.....like tank drivers....guess they could not swing the hammer hard enough to change gears....but in these small and special units they did excel. There is more then one report that says the female snipers are much better then the male, more calm, calculated, and I guess I would say cold heart.....anyone with a girlfriend/wife that has been angry with you knows you do not want a woman ticked off at you (man it is so hard to not type some words....I am trying to be good) These people are so much better as a great many tasks then men are.....I guess that is ok, you just can't say men are better then women at some things :).

I am not sure I would go as far to say without the soviets germany would have won the war.....it might have taken longer, and I am sure the soviets would have pulled something like what they did with Japan at the end...I will agree it would have taken longer. Now if you want to go so far into the weeds and start changing german doctrine....perhaps we should start a new thread.

But this is fun talking this stuff.
Yes, I find the geopolitical speculation fascinating. But back to what you were saying about the ability of the female snipers, it's been my experience that teaching young women to shoot is just easier. They seem to pick up basics faster. Why that is may be hard to say. Maybe they don't already have bad habits. Maybe they're not contending with masculinity issues. Who knows? And of course it's not universal. Some young men have a real affinity for learning fast.

I did hear a video a while back--I have no idea of the link--of a Marine lecturer talking about the Russian success with sniping in Stalingrad as evinced in the book, The War of the Rats. He said, "We know it's true. The Russians said so themselves."

Most of the histories of World War II I've had access to came from Allied Western sources. I'd be very surprised to learn that the Germans didn't counter these women with some highly skilled riflemen of their own. They had the better rifles and the better optics and probably more of a marksmanship tradition.

With the veterans of that period almost all now gone so much of our history has gone with them. I wonder if questions that it might have been possible to answer definitively twenty years ago, if someone had thought to ask, are now only left to speculation?
 
it's been my experience that teaching young women to shoot is just easier. They seem to pick up basics faster. Why that is may be hard to say. Maybe they don't already have bad habits. Maybe they're not contending with masculinity issues. Who knows? And of course it's not universal. Some young men have a real affinity for learning fast.

^^^All of the above plus I believe that most young females have better eye hand coordination than boys and generally they are more receptive to instruction than most boys. After all, young men know how to shoot and don't need any help learning such a masculine skill. ;)

Regards,
hps
 
^^^All of the above plus I believe that most young females have better eye hand coordination than boys and generally they are more receptive to instruction than most boys. After all, young men know how to shoot and don't need any help learning such a masculine skill. ;)

Regards,
hps

I agree with you on teaching females.....as long as they are not "your" female....we all know they will not listen to "their" man.

I think women in general carry less baggage with them to something that is "male" dominated. You are working with a clean slate, where as the male.....most come in thinking well I know what I am doing.....and the more "experience" they have the worse it is. Try to talk to retired military.....and they will just give you fits.....Hay I was in the army for 30 years....I know how to handle a gun.....really what did you do. I was in ground radar :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
^^^All of the above plus I believe that most young females have better eye hand coordination than boys and generally they are more receptive to instruction than most boys. After all, young men know how to shoot and don't need any help learning such a masculine skill. ;)

Regards,
hps
My favorite story of teaching a young woman to shoot came when my niece, who was in Vet. school at the time brought her boyfriend. She wanted me to teach him to shoot, and she intended to just watch. Of course he grew up in a family of hunters and considered himself experienced. He knew enough about handguns to know the challenges.

She didn't know anything.

My condition for letting him shoot was that she participate in equal measure.

Of course I lied. Told her it was no unusual thing to rapid fire a two-inch barreled Smith & Wesson well enough to get ragged hole groups at ten yards. With her perfect eyesight, perfect coordination, and her confidence that her uncle wouldn't lie to her, she was soon doing it. Her poor boyfriend never could. Same with a rifle. With an obsolete saddle ring 38 WCF, she was hitting tiny gongs offhand at over a hundred yards. Again, her boyfriend struggled.

I could have been less mean to him. I probably didn't need to tell him, "If you work at it, you may be quite good one day, but you'll never be as good as Joanne" To his credit, he handled it with decent grace.

The truth is it's not easy to accept that a woman could so easily be a better shot than me, but why shouldn't they be? I'm too old. I have fading eyes, arthritis, joint pain, and general moral debility. It's a wonder that things I want to eat come close enough to me to let me put them in the pot.
 
Does anyone besides me find that it is interesting that most of the top 10 snipers used Mosin Nagants?
Careful there, sir. We all know the Mosin Nagant is not capable of hitting a wall from inside the barn with anything except the 10 foot bayonet LOL.

I think its just a reflection of how military tactics are described or portrayed to the public. The Soviets were very concerned with the image of the worker/common man (or woman) hero. That is one thing the Enemies at the Gates film got right. Look at historic pieces from the old USSR and its kind of everywhere. Promote the deeds of the common folk making the world great kind of thing. Western militaries very much looked down on snipers and lone wolf types.
 
I agree with you on teaching females.....as long as they are not "your" female....we all know they will not listen to "their" man.

:rofl: Guess I was blessed in that area as well. When I met my wife she was terrified of guns. I told her right off the reel that was just not acceptable; and she listened. :) I guess she was the first female I ever taught to shoot.....anyway, she was soon shooting extremely well and, over 62 years later can still hold her own with a rifle and not too shabby with a handgun as well.

I taught marksmanship to lots of youngsters as DCM instructor for our gun club and always preferred the gals because, as you point out, they are a blank slate...no preconceived ideas or false pride to overcome. Had two sisters who shot outdoor smallbore competition who could outshoot any of us old codgers who had been shooting for years (I had nothing to do with teaching those two! In fact, when one of them spoke regarding smallbore, I listened & learned from them and the youngest was 14 at the time.)

Regards,
hps
 
I don't know about the wall of the barn from the inside thing. My 1894 M39 really isn't too bad. And, the octogon receiver is sort of nice. I understand that the Finns reworked the M39s to a 1.5 MOA standard.
 
WOW.....how refreshing to hear from someone that has read a few books and not got everything off of a 3 minute youtube video.

We need to sit down and have a beer.....I think we would have a lot to talk about.....and I extend an invite out to anyone else that would like to know the real truth of the soviets.

I am waiting for someone to sing the praises of Pol Pot next.

Howdy fpgt72,

beer´s on me if you come over to ole Germany :)

Carsten
 
I might have mentioned it upthread, but one of the most successful German snipers on the eastern front did most of his work, in an improvised fashion, out of neccessity, with a Mosin pick-up (pretty sure he had more kills before his belated training in Austria, which occurred later).

"Sniper on the Eastern Front: The Memoirs of Sepp Allerberger", by Albrecht Wacker - for those interested in the story.
 
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