Interesting short artilcle on propellents

[Oyeboten]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm


I need to really study all this a lot more.


Apparently...useing various Black Powder 'substitutes', one can readily acheive pressures ( 26,000 psi + ) in excess of those associated say, with 'Standard' Loadings of .38 Special in 'Smokeless'( ie:17,000-ish )...


And while I am intending to be shooting my Cap-and-Ball Revolver, I am also intending to re-load .38 Special Cartridges, with BP or 'subs', for some of my early S & W Revolvers (Models 1899 and 1902)...and probably also .45 LC, and .38 S&W, and I'd hate to over-pressure the old Revolvers, naively, useing seemingly inncoent-enough Black Powder substitutes...

S.A.M.I. for .45 LC, is 14,000 psi...for example.


Could one over-pressure a Revolver length Barrel or Cylinder with BP substitutes, when used Volume-for-Volume for BP?? Or, are these concerns only for Rifle?


Phil
Las Vegas

 

[Hellgate]

One very easy way to spike up the pressures of the BP subs is to HEAVILY COMPRESS them. APP & 777 can send pressures way up if you try to force too much powder under the bullet. I use 777 in the 38 SPL and 357 mag with a 158gr bullet. My most accurate load for the 357 is 15grs 777, for the 38 it is either 11 or 12grs (can't remember since I rarely load the 38s). I get about 1/10" of compression.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Hellgate,



Thank you...


I'd sent off a while back for some Black Powder, and, have been thinking to also get some '777' or other so-called Substitutes.

Powders only...no 'sticks'.


I did get a brand new jar of 4F Pyrodex today locally, and, I do not know yet whether this was an error in judgement on my part, but, I will definitely not use it untill I feel satisfied my understandings for it's use are correct.


As for .38 Special -

I have a few early 'M&P' S&W Revolvers, which I'd like to reload for.

Trying to learn about and understand the Black Powder alternatives is more complicated than I was expecting.

Now, I'm realizing also, that '777' and maybe other Black Powder Substitues, are no slouches, and, could be used to re-load for modern Revolvers, and, possibly, to produce very good results.





But, I gather, they are used in equal volumes to BP, and, in Metallic Cartridge application, they all are to be lightly compressed, and no more than 'lightly'.


I need to find some data on their pressures and particulars in specific applications, if possible.


Does the 'Lyman' Reloading Manual have data for these Powders? Do you know?


Mine is due here any day now...


In your using the '777' for .357 Magnum, this ends up being on par with regular Magnum power and fps for that Bullet weight/type? Or..?

Any idea what pressures this is doing?


Any idea how this would compare to a full, lightly compressed .357 Load, same Bullet, using 3F BP? FPS wise?



Where, hypothetically, say, in a longer Barreled .38 Special Revolver, enough '777' to be lightly compressed, under a 158grn Lead Bullet, would be a tribute to Elmer Keith? Or, about on Par with equal amount by volume of 3F BP? Or about as any 'S.A.M.I.' Standard Loading for 158grn Lead?


I undersand that an optimal burning rate for one's Barrel Length can allow a powder to impart a higher FPS for a given Bullet, and at a lower pressure, than a less optimum powder could do (making far higher pressures.)


Oye...I've been cramming my pore head..!!


Phil

 

[Hellgate]

Oyeboten,
Also, I have been using the 3F size 777 which is NOT recommended by the maker. I had already worked up my load when I found out about the 3f size not to be used in cartridges. I figured the 357 was a high pressure cartridge that could accommodate my error. I have no data for you other than this:

357mag 158gr bullet fired at 50 yds at steel target
loaded with BP, APP, Black Canyon, or Pyro P= BANG..............ding!
loaded with 777=BANG........DING!
Note the scientific measurements. All I can suspect is the 777 loads are somewhere between BP & smokeless for pressure and velocity. These were not heavily compressed loads. I have read reports of CAS shooters who heavily compressed their 44-40s or 45LCs with APP/Cleanshot and reported noticeably more recoil and backed off. There also is a CLEARshot powder that was discontinued by Goex. It was slightly weaker than BP or the other subs.

 

[Oyeboten]

Thanks Hellgate...


Interesting..!


I gather many erstwhile BP, Cap-and-Ball Shooters do use the '777', and are careful in their meterings/compressings.


I'll be checking my 'Lymans' Re-Loading Manual soon as I have access to it, for any data they may show for Metallic Cartridge applications.


Phil
Las Vegas

 

[AdmiralB]

Couple thoughts on the 38Spl part...BTW, where does that article mention .38?

First, it was originally a BP cartridge itself. Therefore, the fact that the 'standard' is fairly low-pressure should not be surprising.

Second, as stated above, pressure is at least partially dependent upon compression of the charge. In a metallic cartridge, compression may be minimal to nonexistant, depending upon the volumetric characteristics of the propellant. The dimensional envelope of the cartridge takes precedence over the compression characteristics of the load.

 

[higene]

BP in 357?

Indulge me for a minute I'm Not trying to be a smart mouth.

What is the advantage of loading 777 in a 38 or 357 cartridge?
Because its smokier and easier to clean up?

I have loaded a few 38/55 (375 Win) cartridges in BP and I rejected the whole mess. ( It is a hassle, drop tubes, dirty cases which don't clean up easily and a filthy gun in places that are hard to clean).

For a 38 I would think that HBWCs would be an ideal load for cartridge conversions and such.

I don't understand it, just askin -

Higene

 

[Hellgate]

Higene,
The reason I load 777 in the 357 is that I shoot in the Frontiersman category for Cowboy Action Shooting matches and I am required to shoot BP or a sub. I have tried relentlessly to find a "real gunpowder" (BP) load for the 357 that was BOTH little fouling AND accurate. I had a load that would shoot all day without fouling the barrel but was inaccurate (5-6" groups @ 50yds) and another load that would shoot into 1.5"@50yds but I needed to do a wet patch "pull through" between stages to keep the barrel from crudding up (the pull throughs soiled a lot of shirtsleeves). I tried the Snakebite bullet but it would not feed reliably in my rifles but it would have shot all day w/o fouling. So, I tried various subs and was able to get 1.5-2" 50yd groups that would shoot all day w/o fouling the barrel. The 777 did that too but with more UMPH.

 

[owlhoot]

Using a substitute in a cartridge gun is easy enough. If you fill the case to where the base of the bullet will be when seated or very lightly compressed, you'll be fine with your older guns. But not necessarily with 777. Loading .38 spl, 125 gr bullets with slightly compressed loads, I get around 900 fps with a 7.5" barrel. I have no idea what the pressure is. But the load is certainly safe in a .38 in good condition. However, I don't use 777 at all in conversions and opentop guns. They would probably stand it, but why bother.

You won't find any loading data in your Lyman manual for BP revolver loads. You simply fill the case so you have light compression with a substitute and heavy compression with BP.

Using a substitute in a C&B revolver is a bad idea simply because there is no way of knowing how much compression you may be getting. And compressed loads will certainly raise the pressure level considerably. On the other hand, you want heavy compression with true BP so there is no risk with BP. I don't know anybody who uses a substitute in a c&b revolver.

I really prefer to use black powder to any substitute, but there is the necessity for prompt cleaning and it is dirtier but easy enough to clean.

Among the substitutes, my favorite is APP, then Pinnicle, and last of all is Pyrodex which I believe to be even more corrosive than BP. Of course if you need the extra power, 777 is the way to go.

Neither BP nor the substitutes will work well if you attempt to load light unless you use a filler which is a hateful thing to do in a revolver round anyway.

I stick with fffg in revolver and .44-40 rifle rounds. I generally use ffg in the shotgun but I have used the fffg and noticed no increase in recoil. I don't know about using ffffg Pyrodex in a revolver, never tried it and don't want to.

Incidentally, I have good results using a prelubed smokess bullet with both black powder and substitutes. I haven't found it necessary to use either a grease cookie or a wide lube bullet in any of my revolvers and I can get through a five or six stage match without a problem. I use a medium weight grease on my pins rather than oil or Ballistol.

If you are considering using BP or a substitute in a modern double action revolver, I would have to ask WHY? I haven't tried it, but my guess is that it would take but few rounds before your guns started to bind if you used BP. You probably wouldn't have the problem to the same degree using substitutes, but I can't think of a single reason to do it.