Internet Purchase Problems

[schmeky]

I have recently (9 months or so) gotten back into purchasing pistols after a 5 year hiatus. I have been buying a few guns on the Internet, but I've had some problems.

I purchased a used, described as VG to Excellent auto, it took nearly one month to get it after I paid for it. The slide had been "dinged" pretty badly at the drift adjustable rear sight were someone used a hammer and a punch. The dings even encroched on the slide serrations. There were rust pits and the grips were in pretty rought shape. None of this was clearly visible on the pictures used for the sale. I kept it and figured a lesson learned.

I then bought a new pistol that was defective out of the box. I followed the sellers instructions and sent it back shipping prepaid. They agreed to refund my purchase price and everything was fine with me. After 3 weeks and no refund I called. They said "Checks in the mail today". 7 days later no check. Called again. Seller said, "Checks in the mail". Waited another week, no check. I called the ATF and asked if they could help and the agent I spoke with agreed to call the seller. This got my check to me, finally.

It gets better.

I bought another gun (using the refund money) and after 3 weeks, no gun. The seller would not return my phone calls (left messages). I called the Sheriffs department in the sellers county and I couldn't believe the Deputy knew the seller. Deputy called the seller and the Deputy called me back. The seller somehow forgot to ship the pistol. I finally got the pistol.

It gets even better.

I bought another gun recently and included a letter that indicated if the seller sent me the pistol, it would constitute a contract between us giving both certain rights. Mine was a 3 day non-firing inspection, if the pistol did not meet the seller description, I would return it, prepaid shipping for a purchase price refund. If I did not recieve the pistol in 14 days after payment was forwarded to the seller and no response by the seller was provided, I indicated I would contact ATF. This sale was a nightmare. The seller sent me a really nasty e-mail and basically said I was what was wrong with the gun buying public. The sellers positive responses was proof they were a good seller and my "contract" was very offensive. They refused to send the pistol and are sending a refund. I feel this is a very good/excellent seller and I indicated the "contract" was NOT construed to be offensive. I called the seller and they were quite short with me and I had the impression I was being talked down to. I apologized on the phone and tried to convey to them I had some bad transactions recently and to please send the pistol. No dice.

Sorry for the rant, but am I wrong?

I am getting disillusioned with Internet gun sales.

 

[Ala Dan]

SORRY

I can't be of much help, as I've only purchased one handgun on the
World Wide Web. The transaction went very smoothly, with NO
issues involved. However, buying over "the net" sight unseen is
at best a VERY RISKY business. The weapon I bought, a 6" Smith
& Wesson model 28-2 turned out to be a lemon; that had very
serious timing problems. 'Bout $300 bucks later, I decided that
buying weapons via the Internet wasn't for me~!

 

[Jim K]

I have a simple policy - I don't buy any gun I have not had in my hot little hands. I am sure many people have been very satisfied with internet sales, but I prefer to acquire guns from dealers or at gun shows.

For a new or a common gun, my dealer friends can obtain it and I have no problem paying a bit more to them. The sad fact is that even without a problem, the shipping, dealer fee, etc., can eat up the difference between the "bargain" price on the net and a local dealer's price. Plus, dealing with a local shop makes friends who are in a position to do me a favor when I need one.

For exotic collector guns, it is a different story, and I might at some time buy from a net source. But the regular dealers in those items, ones with established reputations who advertise in the collector publications, will probably be a better source, and more trustworthy. They will also be more expensive, but will honor the inspection rules.

Jim

 

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

Other than "that sucks", I've got a real simple statement:

At this point in the game, everything has been done, intarweb commerce-wise, and many of the frequented good-guys and bad-guys have been pretty well defined.

Buying from random people who's character can't be publicly vouched for
is risky. You're buying the seller more than the product, really. A lot of times,
someone highly rated in the 'Private sales rating' subforum can get things you're looking for, rather than seeking out a random guy who advertises "it".

good luck.

 

[Polishrifleman]

Sorry for your problems and re-introduction to buying.

Fortunately I haven't had any problems. As long as we as the buying public post real feedback on transactions it will keep a large majority of the sellers in check but with the anonymity of the internet there are always those that will take advantage of the situation.

Things I do:
Look for feedback, contact someone that has done a transaction with the potential seller, do your homework on price potential problems, ask pointed questions, get photos, save everything, get it in writing, and most of all communicate. Many good deals have gone sideways due to poor or a lack of communication.

It's a small world and the internet makes it even smaller.

GOOD LUCK in the future.

 

[RNB65]

I purchased most of my current gun collection via the 'net. But I only buy new guns from reputable dealers like Bud's Gunshop in KY. I've always gotten exactly what I expected to receive. No drama at all.

It's when you start buying used guns via auctions and surplus dealers that the risk goes up. One man's opinion of what constitutes VG can differ quite a bit from another man's. Not to mention the flat out liars and cheats. I will never buy a used gun that I haven't had a chance to handle and examine firsthand before buying.

 

[panther22]

The few times I've bought over the internet, I've bought from a dealer, not an individual. The dealer has a license to protect, you have leverage with him. Otherwise, you are much safer going to a local gun store, or going to a gun show in your area.
I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences.

 

[DragonFire]

I've purcased several guns through GunBroker.com and have success with all of them. But I've also stayed with new or like-new guns, usually from dealers.

I'm not sure why the 4th seller thought he could keep the money and the gun, but I can understand him having a problem with your "contract". You can't impose a contract after you've made the deal. You don't say how you bought it, auction or private sale, but the time to ask for a 3-day inspection period, is before you agree to the sale. You also don't say what "extra" the seller gets as part of this contract. You got the grace period, what was in it for him to agree to this new deal?

I would imagine that the seller sees himself as an honest man, offering a good deal, and you imply he's some kind of a crook. You didn't it intend it that way, but I can see him seeing it that way.

 

[rbernie]

The guns I've bought on the Internet were all purchased either from storefronts or from sellers who bought-n-sold firearms as a form of home business. (In other words, no hobbyists.) In each case, the condition of the firearm was vastly overstated and I was moderately to significantly disappointed. In no case was it worth my while to send the firearm back or ask for restitution - I simply made a note to avoid seller X or seller Y on the various auction sites.

I have also bought and sold several firearms with THR members via the Buy/Sell/Trade forums. In each case, I was more than satisfied with the description of the firearm and the overall experience.

Guess which path I now recommend...

 

[Roadwild17]

The whole contract thing was a little out of line and a little late. Had I opened an envelope expecting a check and find a "contract" saying the stuff you stated, I would have countered with the gun and a "contract" of my own in the box saying, "once the box is opened, it’s your gun!"

The contract was too little too late to protect yourself. Had the contract been discussed before you made the purchase, than that would have been just putting what you and the dealer talked about into writing.

 

[Majic]

As the others have said all conditions of the sale should have been discussed BEFORE the sale. You can't dictate terms after the fact. When buying over the net request clear detailed pictures. Nasty little surprises will be held to miminum that way. If the requested pictures can't be produced then pass on the sale.

 

[gezzer]

The name of the game is feedback, feedback, feedback.

Deal only with sellers that have good feedback. 100 good 1 neg is okay but 25 good and 10 neg = RUNAWAY!

Pay attention to the feedback it is your ONLY clue to the seller's integrity.

When your transaction is completed LEAVE feedback.

 

[kfranz]

I've bought half a dozen guns via the internet, never had a problem. None were from dealers, and none were from auction sites. All were from FS forums on boards where I'd been a long term member.

 

[Diomed]

Internet buying is a crapshoot - usually I wind up like rbernie, disappointed but not enough to return. The one time I have been let down enough to return a rifle (completely shot out barrel described as "great" and "tight"), the seller refused to honor his own return policy, instead offering a partial refund, which he then never sent.

Of course, when what you want is basically unavailable locally, you're up a creek. Take a chance, or go without.

 

[YodaVader]

I have used gunbroker a few times and ended up sending back two of the 3 purchases I made.

The first was a Smith that was listed at 98% which looked pretty good in the photos but had several flaws which I felt did not represent a 98% gun. The seller was very understanding and gave me full refund , including shipping. Later when the gun was relisted it was downgraded to 90%.

My second purchase was for a NIB Ruger Blackhawk - gun was just as described and the entire transaction went very well. The way all gunbroker sales should turn out.

So , now with the initial bad experience of the Smith out of the way I thought it won't happen again! WRONG! Bought a CZ 22 rifle listed as NIB. It had so many dings on the stock I could not believe it! The seller agreed to take it back , though I was out shipping. Later the rifle was listed as "handled in the shop , a couple of minor dings" A couple,minor? They were too numerous to list!

I said I would never buy again on the Internet unless I was close enough to see the gun in person. Worked a trade with an individual where we met and swaped in person. Went very well.

My luck is probably much worse than most , that is why I prefer the gun shop/gun shows where I get get my paws on the actual item before buying.

 

[Lupinus]

sorry to hear about your experiences but as to the letter if I had been a seller and I opened the envalope expecting the check and see someone dictatiny to me the terms of MY sale after the fact when we are out of the pre buying stage and now in the payment stage, I wouldn't have been a happy camper either.

 

[Radjxf]

I've done the majority of my buying/trading on the 'net. I've had my best deals on the gun forums classifieds from established sellers. As far as GB and GA, you need to really watch your backside, I've seen the so-called 98% guns that were probably NRA 75%! I'd much prefer to buy one from a local storefront, but in my area they're absurdly overpriced and refuse to come down a bit. Selection generally consists of Glocks, more Glocks and Taurus revolvers!

 

[Soybomb]

If I buy online, I buy from a FFL who takes credit card payments. If I have problems I'll just call my credit card company and the ATF.

 

[moredes]

sorry this is so long

I think your "contract", if served along with your funds after the fact (that is, after you'd already agreed to purchase) was possibly unwarranted, and definitely 'out of order', that is to say, it should have come first, before a 'handshake agreement' was made. I've had 30-40 internet firearms transactions where I've used GunsAmerica, GunBroker, and AuctionArms. I've had two guns that didn't meet the description. One gun was advertised with a set of stock photos, and the other had a couple very minor blemishes that I would have considered "unmentioned handling marks". The first gun (stock photos) was sold by a dealer, and he stood firmly behind his sale with a stellar service and guarantee performance (he had a feedback rating of 99+% for a couple thousand !! transactions). The second gun, (handling marks) was so minor, I never even mentioned it to the seller. I don't doubt that he may have never even noticed them, and I wasn't looking or expecting a LNIB gun for the price.

I evaluate an auction or sale by three standards--private or dealer, feedback, and photos.

Assuming I have already confirmed the seller's contact information as unquestionably sound, feedback (if any) must be strong--better than 98% positive if the numbers are over 50. As long as there's feedback, I won't deal with anyone with less than that--2 disgruntled (with a bona fide reason) feedbacks in 50 ain't very good odds in a remote purchase. I'll give a dealer a little more positive bias than a private seller, but not much, unless the buyer is nationally known. This may sound contradictory, but I've done business with a lot of unknown sellers on the forums (and GA, GB, and AA). So long as they have an established address and phone number I can track, and things seem kosher, I've taken the chance (up to a point). I stick to the same payment practices no matter who I buy from--see bottom.

I learned to manipulate a decent photo/image software. Especially with private sellers, if I'm looking for a "pristine" gun, I ask for pictures (digital, if the seller can provide them) of the entire gun--overlapping sections if the purchase is a long gun or one that can't be pictured in it's entirety in one photo. I ask for all angles, which usually requires 6 pictures for handguns. In my photo/image software, I will manipulate the photos--enlarge them, change the lighting to reveal any flaws a darker photo might hide, sharpen (focus) the picture for better detail, and if required, ask for more photos of a specific questionable area. An eager and honest seller will comply without objection. I make my decision, and go from there--email communications must be dependable and courteous; if I get any bad vibes, I'm gone. I explain exactly how I expect them to inform me when they've received my funds, and that I also expect a tracking number when they ship. If I remember, I also tell them in advance that I will ship US Registered Mail. I promise to email copies of the (money order, FFL cert, and postal) receipts when I mail the funds.

PAYMENT METHOD (in case this might concern you)

I pay by BANK money order, certified or cashier's check ONLY; personal check if allowed. NEVER by USPS money order, because they can't be traced, stopped nor cancelled for at least 60 days. Once a postal money order is cashed, the buyer is gone in the wind. With a bank money order, cashier's check, certified or personal check, the seller must go into a bank (and sometimes verify ID) and always, the bank will record the seller's account number on the back of the check. By paying this way, if I don't get the merchandise, and I have to have Postal Inspectors (or ATF) track the seller down, at least there's a trail to follow.

Also, I never send the money any other way than US Registered Mail; the fee is about $8 including postage, but that's damn cheap insurance that 1) my mail isn't lost 2) EVERYONE who handles it signs for it 3) the recipient is required to furnish ID, 4) the delivery person is SUPPOSED to record the ID type and number---theoretically, more data for the inspectors.

Once I mail the funds, I always email copies of the receipts proving the funds were drawn and mailed; only once in about 200 internet transactions has anyone complained about the slowness of Registered Mail, or having to sign for it. That way, the seller knows I'm on the up and up, and I've performed as I'd previously promised.

I have never been burned with this system. One person tried, but my merchandise (not a firearm) arrived within 8 days of a visit/call to the seller by postal inspectors. (I was amazed that I received an advisory letter from the Inspector's Office only 21 days after lodging a complaint, and 4 days after that letter arrived, so did my merch. I'm sure that's not the par resolution time for a complaint)

It seems like a lot of hassle, but when I ship $700-$3500 to a complete stranger I wanna know I can get enough data to hopefully track 'em down if something goes sour; $8 is cheap "insurance".

I hope your experiences get better. It's definitely not for everyone; there is no doubt that cyber transactions can be risky.