Interstate travel concern/question

Status
Not open for further replies.

igotta40

Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
913
Location
Houston
I'll drive from Texas in a few days to Pennsylvania then New Jersey. I'll be staying with family. I have a Texas CHL, not that it will matter.

My concern is entering the state of NJ with a handgun. I know they honor no other state's CHL, but what about transporting in the trunk unloaded and magazine out? May I even bring a handgun into the state? Can I go to Dad's house and put it in his safe for the duration of my visit?

I understand the issue with JHP, I will have FMJ.
 
AFAIK, no, you may not legally bring any handgun into NJ. And you will not have the protection of the federal FOPA because you are coming to NJ, not just passing through.

So, unless you are willing to take a chance on a prison sentence, leave the gun at home.

(Even if you get to the family home with no problem you can't be sure someone in the family won't report you for having an evil gun; folks in most of the NE tend to be totally brainwashed to be anti-gun.)

Jim
 
AFAIK, no, you may not legally bring any handgun into NJ.

It's the "As Far As I Know" in the above that's the problem here... and the information is wrong.

You can import anything you like into NJ and keep it there, as long as it's not prima facia contraband. If you move in, you can keep it there forever and there's no mandatory registration. Stay a week... it's OK as long as it's not being transported while you're there.

NJ doesn't have a 10 round mag limit, they have a 15 round mag limit.


The FOPA allows transport from one place where posession is legal thru any state to where posession is also legal.

Breaking this down:

1: Transport INTO NJ is not illegal...

2: Transport OUT of NJ is not illegal...

3: Tansport WITHIN NJ once it's already there is fraught with peril.

Why? Unlike other states that recite a a number ofreasons why transport of a handgunis illegal, with the balance of the reasons being OK, NJ uniquely presumes tha ALL transport of handguns is illegal and then recites in the statutes a VERY limited number of exceptions to the rule. YOU need to KNOW what those rules are and to be able to VERY carefully articulate those reasons. To be clear:

Transportion of a handgun OUTSIDE THE HOME in NJ requires an affirmitive defense that it's being transported for one of a fairly small number of reasons.


In the VERY unlikely event that you get to NJ safely, decide to then re-transport it someplace else, completely screw up and not only attract the attention of a LEO AND also either give them probable cause for a search or (stupidly) waive your 4th amendment rights and they find a handgun in your car, then you at least better have the right answers for WHY you are transporting it. For example, to pick an arcane example, you can be transporting it to a FFL to have it repaired, but you cannot legally be transporting it to a FFL to be sold. Go figure... so take it to a FFL for repair and then change your mind later.

The bottom line is to:

1: Be prudent.

2: Don't transport for reasons that are not listed in the NJ statutes

3: Know the right answers.



Hint: A pair of small bedside-type security safes bolted down in the trunk of your car is a pretty good plan to A: secure your property, B: comply with the FOPA, and C: to ensure that your 4th amendment rights are not trampled upon. One for handgun, one for ammo.

Reason for two safes? You cannot transport both ammo and firearm in the same box in NJ. Even if you lock your handgun in a safe, If a LEO finds ammunition (such as in a warrantless search, the validity of which you can argue about later in court), they then would have probable cause to break open a safe found in the same car. The small bedside safe boxes are cheap, and a pair of them thru-bolted into the trunk of your car offers very real protections. Total cost? About $100. Well worth it. Failing that, a pair of locked rigid briefcases in the trunk, with a small chain run thru their handles and then thru a bracket in the trunk. You're not making it theft-proof, simply "defensible under 4th amendment opinion rules" from being able to be investigated in the VERY improbable case that you roll your car, it's damaged, the trunk pops open, and your "stuff" is discovered.

Real world advice? Do yourself a favor and don't be found sleeping in your car at a roadside rest in NJ, don't do anything really stupid toattract attention to yourself, and never give up your 4th amendment rights. Carry it into NJ locked seperately from the ammunition, Transfer it to your nice rigid LOCKED briefcase when you get to the house in NJ, toss it into the corner, and forget about it. Nobody needs to know it's there but you, and you're well within the law in every respect.


The above is advice given from the perspective of someone who resided in NJ for decades and who was involved in shooting sports there for decades, who now travels several times a year from his full time domicile in Wisconsin back to his old home in NJ which is just an occasional use beach house now. I have a WI CCW, and carry all the way from WI to the last rest stop in PA. There I stop, unload, lock & secure, and drive to the beach place. I've paid for legal opinion on this, and pass it to you for free for your consideration. I paid for the advice. You, on the other hand, have gotten it for free and it should be worth to you exactly what you've paid for it: Nothing, unless you read the statutes yourself and understand them. If you accept legal advice from strangers on the internet, without independant verification, then shame on you...

:D




Willie

.
 
Last edited:
The OP said he was traveling to NJ. That's what is relevant. If you are traveling from out of state, you better have rock solid proof you were engaged in a permitted activity. How will you do that?

JHP are allowed under very narrow rules.

http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_hollow.html

Of course don't ever consent to a search of your vehilce if you decide to try it.

Good luck.
 
Last edited:
Avoid going through MD or DC on the way. Neither of them gives a whit about FOPA, they WILL arrest you and WILL take your hanguns if you are caught with them there. DC has arrested people for finding empty brass in their car.

Oh, sure, you might win them back .... eventually. But it will cost you a lot of time/money.
 
Leave the gun at a Pennsylvania gun shop for cleaning before you cross the Delaware River. Pick it up on the way back. The FFL-01 does not have to log it into his bound book.

This way you have the gun for protection the vast majority of your
journey. Or you can go the Willie Sutton route. That's what I have done, having family in New Jersey I visit regularly. Decades and no problems.

Whatever you decide, have a good and safe trip!
 
I was under the impression if a firearm is left overnight at an FFL, it must be logged into the bound book.

According to BATFE-an FFL has 24 hours to record an acquisition in his bound book. Is maintenance an acquisition? I don't know.

Q: How much time does a dealer have to record acquisitions and dispositions of firearms in his or her “bound book?”

Generally, licensees have to enter the acquisition or purchase of a firearm by the close of the next business day after the acquisition or purchase and shall record sales or other dispositions within 7 days.

However, if commercial records containing the required information are available for inspection and are separate from other commercial documents, dealers have 7 days from the time of receipt to record the receipt in the “bound book.”

If a disposition is made before the acquisition has been entered in the “bound book,&rdquo the acquisition entry must be made at the same time as the disposition entry.

[27 CFR 478.125]
 
Last edited:
BTW, we have many FFL-01's here on THR. They can give their expert opinions on this important topic. There are so many ways to skin a cat.Imagination is the key.

Having traveled in 49 states with a gun, I have most of them figured out. But we do what we do as individuals. I'm never going to promote breaking the law to another person.
 
The OP said he was traveling to NJ. That's what is relevant. If you are traveling from out of state, you better have rock solid proof you were engaged in a permitted activity. How will you do that?


Travelling INTO New Jersey is protected under FOPA.

Travelling OUT of New Jersey is protected under FOPA.

Simply "I'm passin' thru" is sufficient reason.




Your journey, as defined by FOPA, ends when you reach your destination. If that Destination is your Moms living room, and it's legal to keep there (which it is, under NJ statute), you're good to go.


Fast forward several (days, weeks, months, years later....)


Your second journey, as defined by FOPA begins in your Moms kitchen in NJ (which is a legal place to have it), and ends in Texas, then good riddance to NJ and we hope you enjoyed your stay.

Bottom line is that a trip from Texas to NJ and back is TWO DIFFERENT FOPA JOURNEYS separated by a period of time in which you best be playing by NJ's rules.




The sticky bit begins when you're established in NJ after the end of your FOPA protected journey for a (day, week, month, year), and FOPA is no longer your defense.

Example? Well... be careful when your brother in law asks if you want to come up to his place in Sussex County to do some shooting at his pistol club range... that's likely fine if you make an uninterrupted journey to and from the range. But stop for dinner at a Diner on Route 3 on the way back to Moms (I suggest the Tiffany Diner in Clifton BTW), well... then... you're screwed if you get caught.... so... back to Moms for chow, I say.


Willie

.
 
Last edited:
FOPA says "carry and possess" at your origin and destination. That's pretty iffy under NJ law.

Do whatever makes you comfortable. NJ is the last state I'd play fast and loose with Federal and state transport laws.

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.
 
FOPA says "carry and possess" at your origin and destination. That's pretty iffy under NJ law.


Not all all. It's very clear.

"Carry" in this construction has nothing to do with being able to "carry" in the sense that we generally understand it (IE: "Carry with a CCW").

It simply means that you are "carrying it" during your journey (IE TRANSPORTING IT) under the laws for such "carriage" in the state in which it is being transported.

In simple terms in NJ this means unloaded, locked away from immediate access, with ammunition carried separately.


Simple posession in a residence once your journey ends (while not being transported) in NJ is unregulated. Keeping it at home after you move to NJ permanently? Not a problem. Leaving it at Moms house while you stay there a bit? Not a problem. Prudence would dictate that you keep it secure when there.


Advice:

Pay a lawyer for your opinions.

I did.



Willie

.
 
Last edited:
BTW, we have many FFL-01's here on THR. They can give their expert opinions on this important topic. There are so many ways to skin a cat.Imagination is the key.

Having traveled in 49 states with a gun, I have most of them figured out. But we do what we do as individuals. I'm never going to promote breaking the law to another person.

I posed this question to my LGS, who is an FFL 07/SOT Class III dealer:

Well, if any gun is not logged in within 24 hours it is a violation. ATF told us that for gunsmithing, you don't have to log it in if it is dropped off and picked up the same day. I guess that's because it is still within the 24 hour rule.

As you noted, do whatever you are comfortable with.
 
^^ With all due respect you need to be able to either read for comprehension, not to simply reinforce an opinion that you already (incorrectly) hold, or pay someone who reads and researches for comprehension and pay for the advice. Those people are called attorneys.


You are clearly misunderstanding how the word "Carry" is used in the statute.

Following that:

If you are sincerely interested in legal advice, as I was, pay for it as I did.

For as to whom I would suggest you pay:

If you Google Evan Nappan, you will find the resource I suggest you send a retainer to for your consult as I did.



With all of that said, your sincerely held beliefs are incorrect and any attorney conversant and expert with the subject would advise you differently.


Willie

.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top