Intervening in a 4 on 1 attack

[Cosmoline]

If you walk around the world trying to stop "evil" from triumphing, you have no business being armed. You have to think carefully, act reluctantly, and plan ahead for all potential issues. Otherwise you may put yourself in a situation where you have to take a human life. There is no boldly rushing in for people carrying firearms. It's not an option.

If you want to do that, don a cape, adopt a superhero name and go around trimet throwing yourself between people fighting each other. But don't carry a weapon!

Put another way--once armed you have no business trying to bring justice to the world. Your focus has to be much more narrow than that. Other than calling 911, you are only to act to stop imminent, unlawful deadly force. And it's often very difficult to tell if that's what you're seeing when it comes to third party fights.

 

[Kingcreek]

In a former life, I was a bouncer in a handful of bars. I saw plenty of girl on girl violence and the injuries were usually worse than the guy on guy fights. I hated wading into a girl fight. It seemed to me they always wanted to destroy the other female, ruin their clothes, their face etc.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Cosmoline
If you walk around the world trying to stop "evil" from triumphing, you have no business being armed. You have to think carefully, act reluctantly, and plan ahead for all potential issues. Otherwise you may put yourself in a situation where you have to take a human life. There is no boldly rushing in for people carrying firearms. It's not an option.

If you want to do that, don a cape, adopt a superhero name and go around trimet throwing yourself between people fighting each other. But don't carry a weapon!

Put another way--once armed you have no business trying to bring justice to the world. Your focus has to be much more narrow than that. Other than calling 911, you are only to act to stop imminent, unlawful deadly force. And it's often very difficult to tell if that's what you're seeing when it comes to third party fights.

No one talked about going around looking to stop evil. Run around in a cape? Really? Funny... BTW, did I say pull your gun out and shoot the four girls??? So if you had pepper spray, you wouldn't break the fight up?

If something is happening right in front of them and one can make a difference without putting yourself or your family in jeopardy why would one not do it? It's not about playing hero. I'm not talking about doing a gun fight with BGs to prevent a bank robbery in progress. It's about being a decent human being. Way too many people in this country have become indifferent and selfish.

Before you say something like, "so what are you doing?"... I'm involved in community policing and run our homeowner's association. So, what are YOU doing?

 

[Cosmoline]

You said:

Look at my tag...

Which says:

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

So if you had pepper spray, you wouldn't break the fight up?

I very much doubt pepper spray would break up the fight. It could, but it could also escalate the situation by bringing other people into the fight--against me. And if I'm armed then I've brought a firearm into the fight like it or not. A fight I just started. Bad bad bad

It's about being a decent human being.

No it isn't, at least if you're armed. If you are UNarmed, then by all means interject yourself. If you're armed, you cannot unless you are an LEO in that jurisdiction. Not unless you are absolutely positive that you are witnessing imminent, unlawful deadly force. And that's very tough to tell when you didn't see what led to the fight and you don't know any of the participants. Heck for all you know the victim on the bus just shived one of the attackers.

There are also tactical problems. The old reach, throw, row, go rule of drowning people applies to some extent. You should be reluctant to "go" as the first step. Physical intervention puts you at a huge disadvantage, and should be avoided. Use cover, use concealment, observe hands. Call 911 by all means. But keep your advantages of distance and position.

I'm not talking about doing a gun fight with BGs to prevent a bank robbery in progress

That would actually present much less of a problem, if you're talking about armed men with masks presenting an unambiguously imminent, unlawful deadly threat. And you might well have to fight for your life. Though IRL most bank holdups are done with a piece of paper and you wouldn't even know they were happening.

So, what are YOU doing?

Keeping a cell phone handy. I've run across many domestic squabbles where there's a punchup going on. She slaps him a bunch, he punches her back. Etc. I leave resolving that kind of thing to the pros, HAPPILY. School-aged miscreants fighting each other is another reason to call the police.

If it's a young child being beaten by someone much older it's another matter. That calls for a more serious response because there's much less possibility that the victim was the aggressor and a much higher probability that a blow will be deadly.

 

[Onward Allusion]

^^^^

Absolutely, and I do take that quote to heart, but I also wouldn't pick-up hitchhikers or help someone on a dark lonely road. Maybe the quote should be "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing, but don't be a moron about trying to save the world."

As for pepper spray breaking up a fight - yes, it will in most cases. It will take the fight out of most people unless they are that 1% or are hopped on drugs. For 4 teenage girls beating on 1, I'm pretty sure the fight would end right then and there. I would spray and get out, btw.

 

[Cosmoline]

How do you legally justify spraying (assaulting) people who are just standing there? The victim herself? How can you limit your spray to the assailants on such a crowded train without man-handling them in the process?

 

[Strykervet]

Very well said. I agree with you. My grandfather wouldn't have hesitated.

He also didn't have to worry about liberal prosecutors with an agenda, police officers having to strictly answer to every decison made and common sense being thrown out the window in the legal system of his time.

We are plagued with these and I agree, banding together to support each other to make a change in the world we live in should be our goal and maybe that starts with the guy who breaks up a teenage girl fight and is backed by people like us.

I really like the diversity of thought on this board. I have recently switched to it and learn a great deal from these exchanges.

??? Tammany Hall?

 

[Onward Allusion]

Cosmoline
How do you legally justify spraying (assaulting) people who are just standing there? The victim herself? How can you limit your spray to the assailants on such a crowded train without man-handling them in the process?

Let's just say that you and I have differing philosophies and leave it at that.

Like I'd posted earlier - and this time I will clarify as to not offend...

May anyone not in agreement with my values, including any of their loved ones, never endure a beating (or worst) while in the presence of idle observers who are too concerned with their own safety or liability.

 

[Strykervet]

"These aren't kid used to respecting authority. They will unite against you, male and female, and you'll have a real problem. Are you going to start killing them?"

I suppose if I had too. If I can't pound 'em off and I'm surrounded by a bunch of sheeple that can't break the spell, AND I fear for my life (for the same reason I would have stepped in for the girl --I know what she is going through) then yeah. If I had to draw and I shoved 'em back and they advanced, yeah, one might go down --BUT it depends on the threat. They aren't taking my weapon and they aren't threatening my life (to the degree I feel I may lose it) and so that "Go ahead, what are you gonna shoot me?" crap isn't working. If I can't help you digest a few teeth, then I have other options.

Trust me, you use language that you can't say on here and start flinging kids arounds, WHILE demanding the spectators help you, the rules change. No different than open carry protests we talked about on here yesterday. One guy shows up, yeah, he gets pilloried. Several show up, the cops just stand back and watch. And you only need one person to record it all, that is good, but you don't need 15 people doing that and nothing else. Disgusting. I don't see adults taking a record, I see school kids watching other school kids beat up another school kid. Every single one of those adults should have been charged with not rendering aid. Here that is a law save a few exceptions, fear of life being one, and if you are afraid of you life for teenage girls, dude, just stay home.

See, I've been here. You will not sway how I feel about this at all. I am only trying to give those of you that have been lucky enough to live a pampered life and never been in a fight some insight from someone who has been in more than they ever wanted. In a way, it defined me. I'm no superhero, but I'll act like one when necessary, and you should too. I went to a bad school, REAL bad, so I agree with the broken education system completely. But I also won't stand by and watch someone who is getting beat like that and do nothing. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

What if it was your daughter? What would you say to me if she suffered a permanent brain damage, and my only consolation was that I was a good witness? Or died? Knowing I had the skills and tools (if needed) to stop this AND been in her shoes?

"You know Mr. X, I've had the snot beat out of me by ten people and had a guy answer a door I was breaking down when one came to finish me off with a double barrel. He saved my life. But due to current events, I simply cannot help your daughter today, so I recorded it all and I'll turn it over to the police and send flowers, but I absolutely cannot step in to help a person in peril --ever. Sorry for your loss Mr. X" That cool with you all? Because that is what you are saying no matter how you say it, that or you are a participant like the majority of those that recorded it.

It only takes a few centimeters one way or the other or a few more Newtons of force to do this. That guy at the Giants game, I bet those kids didn't plan on doing that much damage to him either. That they didn't kill her or put her in a vegetative state or something is a testament to how much damage our bodies can take. That people on here that have the tools and skills to stop a little girl from being beaten yet do nothing is a testament to the shallowness of our society, and how far some of you cowtow to the corrupt systems. If you think they are that corrupt, you should fight those too.

Maybe that is the problem. Maybe some of you have no fight. I'm out, I'm done with this conversation as there really isn't much to say. You either help people in trouble or you watch people in trouble, there really isn't an inbtween here, no neutral ground --save that crap for philosophy discussions.

 

[Strykervet]

How do you legally justify spraying (assaulting) people who are just standing there? The victim herself? How can you limit your spray to the assailants on such a crowded train without man-handling them in the process?

Honestly? I can't and I don't care. I've sucked it up, some of those adult babies can too. The victim, she'll fare a lot better with a few sniffles and some burning than she would with a head contusion.

 

[Mike1234567]

This has become a God-forbidden place when even young girls have become so violent. I guess my attitude has really plummeted lately but I get really sick and tired of seeing people hurt and take advantage of others.

 

[03Shadowbob]

I couldn't just sit there and do nothing unless it was Madoff, Anthony, or someone of the like.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Nope, not wishing 'em bad. I just hope Karma, the Universe, G_D...whoever and whatever would just nail 'em THEN maybe they'll see it from the other side. Just because you have a gun on you doesn't mean you have to use it. There are other options. But to say something akin to "hey, it's their fault for not protecting themselves"??? REALLY??? REALLY??? Let's put it this way, I wouldn't want guys like that next to me going into battle.

Look at my tag...

I'm going to share a little gem of karma that happened close to me so as to mabye shake up your good guys wear white hats world is flat view.

I work in heavy steel Fab. And we had a temp employee fail to unhooking some rigging properly wile standing in a very bad place causing a 10 ton girder to fall on him. The scene was grim but we jumped all over the scene extricating the guy administered aid and somehow he lived and recovered. We were heroes right?

Well he quit and we heard nothing else from him.

Until two years later when he was arrested and charged with molesting a four year girl in a park bathroom.

Yeah that karma always gets it right huh

posted via tapatalk using android.

 

[Cosmoline]

If I'm being punched I don't also want to be pepper sprayed. And if I need help, I'll ask for it.

You will not sway how I feel about this at all.

Feelings are one thing. I feel like those "kids" are worthless trash. But you have to set that aside when you're armed and think rather than feel. You have to be exceedingly reluctant to interject yourself in a fight absent imminent deadly threats.

But I also won't stand by and watch someone who is getting beat like that and do nothing. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Who said do nothing? You watch, you call the police, you make yourself a good witness who can identify each assailant while at the same time watching hands for weapons and putting yourself in a good tactical position. You don't dive in there and start kicking girls. You don't hose down everyone with pepper spray.

 

[SleazyRider]

Based on what I saw of the videotape, this did not meet my criteria for intervention. The group of teens obviously knew each other, and most of the blows being dealt appeared to be open-handed slaps, not weapons. There was a lot of hooting and hollering going on, which suggests the melee had the approval of their peer group. I would have been an outsider---by virtue of both my race and age---intervening in an insider's argument. Their behaviors are certainly inappropriate in my culture, but apparently not in theirs, and it is therefore not for me to intervene.

The cell phone or "emergency rope" in the conveyance would have been the only "weapons" I would have deployed in this particular circumstance.

 

[Onward Allusion]

No, Karma doesn't always get it right, but that doesn't mean I won't lend it a hand in certain situations.

 

[Kleanbore]

Be Very Careful

Posted by 03Shadowbob: I couldn't just sit there and do nothing unless it was Madoff, Anthony, or someone of the like.

Using your cell phone is probably the best way to "do something" without incurring physical and legal risk.

In some jurisdictions, one may employ force to defend a third party only if you have reason to believe that the third party would have been legally justified in using force to defend himself or herself.

In one state, not even such a reasonable belief will suffice, should the party not be so justified.

Mutual combat, or the third party's having instigated the confrontation, would pose a serious problem for you in such jurisdictions, should you choose to intervene.

And then there's the risk that the person whom you tried to protect will end up testifying against you. That does happen.

 

[hermannr]

First, yes you can carry on the Trimet, and in Seattle on the metro too. That part is not a problem. This would be one of the few places I think I would carry concealed, should I ever use public transportation (which I normally do not, except for the ferry) but then I normally OC and do not conceal.

My personal response would tend toward interposing my rather substantial bulk between the 4 and the one, basically to shield the poor girl from getting beaten up. I may be old, but I'm not small.

As was alluded to, what if one of the agressive 4 pulls a knife? I don't think so. If they were going to do that, IMHO teh knife would already be in action.

 

[R.W.Dale]

First, yes you can carry on the Trimet, and in Seattle on the metro too. That part is not a problem. This would be one of the few places I think I would carry concealed, should I ever use public transportation (which I normally do not, except for the ferry) but then I normally OC and do not conceal.

My personal response would tend toward interposing my rather substantial bulk between the 4 and the one, basically to shield the poor girl from getting beaten up. I may be old, but I'm not small.

As was alluded to, what if one of the agressive 4 pulls a knife? I don't think so. If they were going to do that, IMHO teh knife would already be in action.

OK you do this only to discover the 4 on 1 fight was in reality a gang initiation and all five pull knives while their 20 something dropout boyfriends come to the back of the car to engauge their "sizeable bulk" into the fray.

THEN WHAT? you gonna start shooting kids? Albeit degenerative ones?


Life's not as simple as a "death wish" movie guys. Another famous quote comes to my mind "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

posted via tapatalk using android.

 

[JTHunter]

Let's see - - first thing to do would be hang on to something and pull the emergency cord.
When the train hits the brakes, these hooligans are apt to go tumbling which would give you the opportunity to step in while they are dazed and confused to separate the fighters. Get the vic behind you and back her away from the others. If they choose to pursue you, a little open-handed face-palm action would get their attention.
If they persist, or up the ante by pulling a knife, then just uncover WITHOUT PULLING your gun and rest your hand on it. Advise them they can either leave or wait to be arrested.

 

[mljdeckard]

First of all, in Utah you can carry on all mass transit, and I have done so many times.

I'm with RW Dale. I carry to protect me and mine, not you and yours. I'm going to observe and report. (Incidentally, this is also the advice of the state police who teach the course to be a carry instructor.)

Let's think about this for a second. So, you see it happening. Do you start shooting into a crowd where you don't see any other weapons? On a train, where you don't know what's behind those people or on the other side of the bulkhead? Do you wade into the middle of four people already engaged in violence, HOPING that one or more of them doesn't pull out a knife, HOPING that more of their friends aren't sitting on the sidelines? You know what's worse than the girl getting beat up? BOTH of you getting beat up, or killed, and on youtube, unable to work. Or indicted for homicide for shooting unarmed teenage girls. There are a hundred ways this could turn out badly, and NONE where it could turn out well.

Take a video clip. Make sure you can see their faces. Hang up. Call the police. Tell them what train and car you are on, they can meet you at the next stop, board the train, and make sure no one leaves. You want to do some good? This is how. Repeat after me: MY CARRY PERMIT DOES NOT COME WITH A CAPE.

 

[Davek1977]

I work in heavy steel Fab. And we had a temp employee fail to unhooking some rigging properly wile standing in a very bad place causing a 10 ton girder to fall on him. The scene was grim but we jumped all over the scene extricating the guy administered aid and somehow he lived and recovered. We were heroes right?

Well he quit and we heard nothing else from him.

Until two years later when he was arrested and charged with molesting a four year girl in a park bathroom.

Yeah that karma always gets it right huh

So, you are basically saying "Don't do anything, because i did one time, and it turns out I saved a child molester"? Seriously? THATS your argument? Sorry, but the guilt of letting someone die when i had the means to prevent it would outweigh the guilt of finding out the person i saved wasn't an upstanding citizen. I do NOT subscribe to your way of thought...."they MIGHT be a bad person, so let them be". IMO, you were still a hero for what you did, regardless if he quit, forgot to say thank you, or molested a child two years later. You were responsible for saving a life, not for making sure that life was lived up to your standards after the fact

 

[rEVOLVEr VII]

No way i'd be able to sit there and allow that to go on, with that being said I wouldn't pull out my weapon for that situation either, I think that would be going a bit overboard.

I believe some old fashioned hand to hand combat would suffice in this situation, in this 4against 1 person situation the 4 are overpowering the other girl for their numbers alone, you come to the girls aid it will most likely cease their attack of the girl and hopefully they wont turn on you.

Most people are cowards alone, in a group they think their invincible, show them their not. More then likely the attackers will see people coming to the girls aid and stop.

As for pulling a firearm? No way would I risk firing into a crowded train. I believe there's safer, smarter ways to handle that.

 

[Onward Allusion]

I've went back and re-read some of the posts and seriously - WOW!

I don't think anyone here who advocated intervention said, "I'm gonna pull my gun 'cause I have a CCW and shoot 'em dead." or "Shoot first and ask questions later." or "I'm a superhero and I wear a cape and carry a gun, so it's my job to look for trouble."

Sure, call 911, and be a good witness, but you're not going to yell "Hey, stop doing that S***!!! NOW!!!" Or, yell - The PO PO are on the way!!! Better **** NOW! or Get the hell away from her!

Would you want your wife/daughter/mother gang raped in the presence of a crowd of people while no one intervened??? Oh wait, they did intervene - they called the po po and were good witnesses. Crap like this has happen ya know... I want you guys (and you know who I'm referring to) to think deeply about this.

I get protecting your own bacon. I totally get that 'cause I grew up on the SW. Side of Chicago in the 80's - racial tension like you can't believe. One summer, I ended up at Orr High School (West Side) for summer school. Can you imagine being the only non-black kid in the whole dang school????! Know what, even some of those black kids had MY back when I got hassled.

I seriously hope that I am never on the receiving end of anything bad while in your presence 'cause when seconds count, the po po are only minutes away!

 

[Art Eatman]

Okay. More than enough...