Hi everybody, I'm new to this forum and my name is Rick. I have a question about the GI 45 from Springfield. Is the frame and slide investment cast? Also, what differences in slide and frame materials are there between it and Sprinfields Mil Spec and Colts 1991A1 if any? I was just wondering because I'm thinking of getting one but the price is so affordable I assumed corners have been cut somewhere on the GI. Maybe I'm wrong though. Thanks for any input!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Investment casting on 1911s
- Thread starter Pythonman
- Start date
- Status
-
Not open for further replies.
Jim Watson
Member
Springfield advertises that all their slides and frames are forged... in Brazil.
I have not seen the alloys used to be published. From what I have seen and read, the GI may be the best production model gun SA is selling right now. I don't know how they are "cutting corners." Maybe it is just that they are marking up the Mil Spec and Loaded more.
Not that cast is bad. I will put my cast Caspians up against anybody's.
I have not seen the alloys used to be published. From what I have seen and read, the GI may be the best production model gun SA is selling right now. I don't know how they are "cutting corners." Maybe it is just that they are marking up the Mil Spec and Loaded more.
Not that cast is bad. I will put my cast Caspians up against anybody's.
Thanks for the quick replies guys. I have read 1911Tuners reports on the GI and he specifies some of the parts as being cast and some forged and I was unclear about the slide and frame. Not worried though as both of my Rugers (GP100, SP101) are cast and bull strong. I was assuming that maybe casting was done to save money in production or something. I'll be putting cash on the GI 45 shortly as it really looks like a well crafted piece. It's the equal to Springfields fine Mil Spec 1911s I've seen and certainly more attention to detail and finishing shows compared to the Colt 1991A1s I've owned.
BluesBear
member
From the Springfield Armory 2004 catalogue;
"The new GI Series .45 handgun features a forged frame, slide and barrel. It has a standard ejection port, standard spur hammer and oiled walnut grips. Other features include a lanyard loop on the arched mainspring housing, vertical slide serrations and low profile military sights. Every GI .45 auto has our Internal Locking System (ILSâ„¢) and titanium firing pin."
"The new GI Series .45 handgun features a forged frame, slide and barrel. It has a standard ejection port, standard spur hammer and oiled walnut grips. Other features include a lanyard loop on the arched mainspring housing, vertical slide serrations and low profile military sights. Every GI .45 auto has our Internal Locking System (ILSâ„¢) and titanium firing pin."
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Castings
Howdy Pythonman, and welcome in.
As the Bear pointed out, the major components are machined from forged barstock, and the small parts are either investment castings or MIM...which
has fueled many many flame wars on this and other forums. A good quality
casting or MIM process part can be very good, and the upside of the GI
Springfield is that these parts seem to be good quality parts...but they're
still not machined steel. If your gun will see only light to medium use,
it'll probably never cause a problem, or at least not for a long time. For
those of us who are anal over reliability...and I am solidly in that category...
upgrading to better small parts isn't negotiable. We're going to do it.
Luck!
Tuner
Howdy Pythonman, and welcome in.
As the Bear pointed out, the major components are machined from forged barstock, and the small parts are either investment castings or MIM...which
has fueled many many flame wars on this and other forums. A good quality
casting or MIM process part can be very good, and the upside of the GI
Springfield is that these parts seem to be good quality parts...but they're
still not machined steel. If your gun will see only light to medium use,
it'll probably never cause a problem, or at least not for a long time. For
those of us who are anal over reliability...and I am solidly in that category...
upgrading to better small parts isn't negotiable. We're going to do it.
Luck!
Tuner
Tuner, which small parts would be best to have replaced on the GI? Also, in your opinion how does the new GI Springer stack up against the parkerized 1991A1 Colts? Lest anyone think I don't like the two 1991A1s I've owned let me state that they were both quite accurate and reliable but the wild, sloppy and overcut ejection ports and uneven frame machining, especially under the trigger guard left much to be desired IMO.
I have built several guns using Caspian investment cast frames and slides, and have had no problems whatsoever. However while these are very high quality castings some on the market are not. Some consider forgings to be better, but Caspian, who have made parts using both methods, prefer castings over forgings.
It should never be forgotten that forging is a METHOD of making a part, and the quality of the finished parts depends on the alloy used, how well the forgings are machined, and in some cases how it is heat treated afterwards. Again, I have never had problems with Colt’s forged parts because of their close attention to these details, although in recent years at certain times their machining left something to be desired.
I have had little experience with either Kimber or Springfield. I don’t personally own either, and what work I have done has been to make minor adjustments and/or replace parts in them on guns belonging to others. My feelings about them at the moment is that they may make a good starting point as a “builder,†but I wouldn’t trust them as they came out of the box. Both companies have done too much cost-cutting for my tastes.
That said, I think people need to realize that this particular kind of pistol cannot be both built like it should be, and be inexpensive, especially when compared to some others, such as Glock, Beretta and SIG.
It should never be forgotten that forging is a METHOD of making a part, and the quality of the finished parts depends on the alloy used, how well the forgings are machined, and in some cases how it is heat treated afterwards. Again, I have never had problems with Colt’s forged parts because of their close attention to these details, although in recent years at certain times their machining left something to be desired.
I have had little experience with either Kimber or Springfield. I don’t personally own either, and what work I have done has been to make minor adjustments and/or replace parts in them on guns belonging to others. My feelings about them at the moment is that they may make a good starting point as a “builder,†but I wouldn’t trust them as they came out of the box. Both companies have done too much cost-cutting for my tastes.
That said, I think people need to realize that this particular kind of pistol cannot be both built like it should be, and be inexpensive, especially when compared to some others, such as Glock, Beretta and SIG.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Parts is parts...Not!
Pythonman asked:
Tuner, which small parts would be best to have replaced on the GI? Also, in your opinion how does the new GI Springer stack up against the parkerized 1991A1 Colts.
________________________
I'd replace the extractor right off the bat...Oddly enough, Springfield's
extractors are barstock. The slidestop really should be, along with the
firing pin stop. The mainspring housing and trigger are a matter of preference. If you're okay with the ILS system and the arched housing/short trigger set-up, it seems to be as good as any on the aftermarket these days...mainspring housings, incidentally are all castings too. The ejectors on the GI Springfields seem to be out of spec, and probably need to be replaced, since the standard ejectors don't lend themselves to a lot of leeway for tuning. The ejectors are MIM too...Small
or thin MIM parts subject to impact forces don't seem to fare well.
Jury is still out on the MIM hammer, sear, and disconnector. I'll eventually
install those parts in a beater and wring'em out to see how they hold up.
If you plan on heavy use AND carry...I'd go ahead and err on the side of caution and replace the set. Caution: The those three fire control parts
are NOT drop-in parts. They might drop in and work...but don't gamble your retirement funds on it.
If you can find a GI mag catch that will drop in...grab it. Although Springfield's mag catches seem to be very good, they're not machined barstock. Alternate plan is to have two. One for range use, and one for carry. 15-second swap...25 bucks for a spare. A good barrel bushing is also
recommended. MGW makes a nice, close tolerance drop-in replacement
that fits better to the frame, and usually a little better to the barrel. 20 bucks. Finish lapping with J&B Bore Cleaner may be required...but not much. You'll probaby need a bushing wrench if it does.
As for how they stack up to the NRM Series 80 Colt...The Colt has fewer MIM/Cast parts, but the fitting isn't as good as the Springfield...at least not
in the dozen or so that I've seen...and I own one. I had to swage/peen the frame rails at the front and refit...and then there was the matter of the disconnector. You can search for: "A Disconnector Story" here to read the details.
The barrel fit/lockup was also better in the Springfield than in the Colts
that I've seen. The Colts are also Series 80 pistols...if that's a concern.
It is for some, but if the system is correctly timed, it's reliable. The downside is that it's a little more tedious to reassemble after a detsil-strip.
Minor stuff.
If you replace the ILS system with the standard set-up, you'll need to go with a standard firing pin spring. The titanium firing pin seems okay so far...
but I intend to replace it with a steel pin soon. If Brownells hadn't sent the wrong pin, it would already be there.
Excellent commentary by Fuff in the previous reply, and spot on. The quality of a casting OR a forging depends on the quality of the materials and the quality control at the foundry. I've seen forgings that were piss-poor as well as investment castings that were top-notch.
Luck!
Tuner
Pythonman asked:
Tuner, which small parts would be best to have replaced on the GI? Also, in your opinion how does the new GI Springer stack up against the parkerized 1991A1 Colts.
________________________
I'd replace the extractor right off the bat...Oddly enough, Springfield's
extractors are barstock. The slidestop really should be, along with the
firing pin stop. The mainspring housing and trigger are a matter of preference. If you're okay with the ILS system and the arched housing/short trigger set-up, it seems to be as good as any on the aftermarket these days...mainspring housings, incidentally are all castings too. The ejectors on the GI Springfields seem to be out of spec, and probably need to be replaced, since the standard ejectors don't lend themselves to a lot of leeway for tuning. The ejectors are MIM too...Small
or thin MIM parts subject to impact forces don't seem to fare well.
Jury is still out on the MIM hammer, sear, and disconnector. I'll eventually
install those parts in a beater and wring'em out to see how they hold up.
If you plan on heavy use AND carry...I'd go ahead and err on the side of caution and replace the set. Caution: The those three fire control parts
are NOT drop-in parts. They might drop in and work...but don't gamble your retirement funds on it.
If you can find a GI mag catch that will drop in...grab it. Although Springfield's mag catches seem to be very good, they're not machined barstock. Alternate plan is to have two. One for range use, and one for carry. 15-second swap...25 bucks for a spare. A good barrel bushing is also
recommended. MGW makes a nice, close tolerance drop-in replacement
that fits better to the frame, and usually a little better to the barrel. 20 bucks. Finish lapping with J&B Bore Cleaner may be required...but not much. You'll probaby need a bushing wrench if it does.
As for how they stack up to the NRM Series 80 Colt...The Colt has fewer MIM/Cast parts, but the fitting isn't as good as the Springfield...at least not
in the dozen or so that I've seen...and I own one. I had to swage/peen the frame rails at the front and refit...and then there was the matter of the disconnector. You can search for: "A Disconnector Story" here to read the details.
The barrel fit/lockup was also better in the Springfield than in the Colts
that I've seen. The Colts are also Series 80 pistols...if that's a concern.
It is for some, but if the system is correctly timed, it's reliable. The downside is that it's a little more tedious to reassemble after a detsil-strip.
Minor stuff.
If you replace the ILS system with the standard set-up, you'll need to go with a standard firing pin spring. The titanium firing pin seems okay so far...
but I intend to replace it with a steel pin soon. If Brownells hadn't sent the wrong pin, it would already be there.
Excellent commentary by Fuff in the previous reply, and spot on. The quality of a casting OR a forging depends on the quality of the materials and the quality control at the foundry. I've seen forgings that were piss-poor as well as investment castings that were top-notch.
Luck!
Tuner
MoNsTeR
Member
Are the units you guys are seeing fit well? I handled a Springfield GI and it felt like it had sand in the rails, easily the worst slide/frame fit I'd ever handled.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Sandy Springfield
Monster said:
Are the units you guys are seeing fit well? I handled a Springfield GI and it felt like it had sand in the rails, easily the worst slide/frame fit I'd ever handled.
Howdy Monster,
The gritty feel in the rails is a result of parkerizing the slide and frame on top of the close tolerances. I took the fast route by using a little J&B Bore Cleaner and CLP Breakfree to lap the slide and frame before I shot it...but it would probably have self-lapped with plenty of oil and about 2 or 3 hundred rounds. Mine is now as slick as buttered glass and still a close fit.
Luck!
Tuner
Monster said:
Are the units you guys are seeing fit well? I handled a Springfield GI and it felt like it had sand in the rails, easily the worst slide/frame fit I'd ever handled.
Howdy Monster,
The gritty feel in the rails is a result of parkerizing the slide and frame on top of the close tolerances. I took the fast route by using a little J&B Bore Cleaner and CLP Breakfree to lap the slide and frame before I shot it...but it would probably have self-lapped with plenty of oil and about 2 or 3 hundred rounds. Mine is now as slick as buttered glass and still a close fit.
Luck!
Tuner
Well, last night the wife says, "What could I do to make you happy"? So I says, naturally like, "Well, you know there's this new GI Springfield commemorative 45 for sale cheap I wouldn't mind having!" After taking her out for some really good dinner she say's, "How about if you drop me off at home and go get yer gun you're after."
So, to make a long story short, there I was field stripping my new government sized GI last night and checking everything out and cleaning and oiling it and I must say I'm liking what I'm seeing so far. I'll hopefully get to shoot it today, weather permitting, or tomorrow, sunshine, rain, hail, tornado or whatever. I picked up a box of Blazer Brass 230gr FMJ and a box of UMC 230gr and have a box of my old reloads or 200gr lead swc and some leftover Fiocci hardball. If everything goes as good at the range as I hope, I'll look for some quality leather and spare mags to go with it too. Nice gun.
So, to make a long story short, there I was field stripping my new government sized GI last night and checking everything out and cleaning and oiling it and I must say I'm liking what I'm seeing so far. I'll hopefully get to shoot it today, weather permitting, or tomorrow, sunshine, rain, hail, tornado or whatever. I picked up a box of Blazer Brass 230gr FMJ and a box of UMC 230gr and have a box of my old reloads or 200gr lead swc and some leftover Fiocci hardball. If everything goes as good at the range as I hope, I'll look for some quality leather and spare mags to go with it too. Nice gun.
- Status
-
Not open for further replies.
Similar threads
- Replies
- 22
- Views
- 2K
- Replies
- 19
- Views
- 1K
- Replies
- 9
- Views
- 670