Investments

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Borgen

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My first post.

I'm interested in purchase of a few firearms as an investment -- something to keep for 10-15 years as a hedge toward retirement.

Any suggestions?
Where do I find appropriate prices?
How do I determine what is likely to keep it's value?
Or increase in value?
 
Given that I think there are a lot better investments than firearms (although few as much fun), some possibilities.

obviously, you should really know your market. Specialize in something and know it completely. Otherwise you will get burned.

What you want is rare, irreplacable pieces.

English best SxS will just continue to go up in value.
Class 3 firearms might be a good investment, but they could also go to zero with one stroke of a socialist's pen.

special edition type guns usually aren't worth it. Find something that hasn't been discovered yet but will. What are people going to really want in 15 years that they could have had for very little today.

And no, I don't have any specific ideas, or I'd be out there too.
 
I submit that the sort of firearms that will hold - and increase - their value are already very expensive. I'm thinking dueling pistols, fine English sporting guns, etc. The sort of guns you can get for a few hundred dollars today are not going to appreciate very much. If you buy a $25,000 vintage piece today, yes, it'll at least hold that value, and probably appreciate - but you have to find the $25K right now to buy it! Expensive hobby, albeit rewarding in many ways.

For a few examples, see the following sites:

http://www.armchairgunshow.com/

http://www.ocyoung.com/index.htm

http://www.gunshop.com/

http://www.hallowellco.com/index.html

There are many others.
 
Buy pre-lock, large frame Smith & Wesson revolvers, the older the better. Blued, NIB, put them in the back of your safe (if you can). Joe
 
Mauser Code byf German Luger. Actually, most Lugers in very good to excellent rating. Current prices typically over $1k-$1500.:)
 
Pre-cartridge arms.

Good condition percussion, flintlock, wheellock, or matchlock firearms, from Europe or North America, will hold value at minimum, and normally appreciate. For example, a Brown Bess musket that would have run $2000 or less ten years ago is now over $3500 and getting near $4000.

Of course, one must also account for inflation. ;)
 
or go from ~$5000 for a fully auto to $900 if they become leagal to sell to public again.

I seriously doubt that will ever happen.
 
or go from ~$5000 for a fully auto to $900 if they become leagal to sell to public again.

Not all machine guns would immediately lose all their value. For example, a 1921 Thompson or a AK47 Vietnam bringback have part of their value in that they're machine guns, but part of their value is that they're old, rare and/or have some historical value. So they'd probably drop in price some, but not as much as an AR RDIAS or HK sear, which really are cheap little pieces of metal that should cost just a few dollars to buy.
 
Appreciate the help. Still open to ideas. Several of you seem to think it not a very good idea? How come?
 
Unless you are willing to spend a lot of money on single items the return on firearms under $1,000 is usually very small. Buying firearms as an investement requires you, or someone, to know what's constantly going on in the old guns market and to anticipate what will be going on in the market in 5, 10, 15 years. If any of us had known that $80 M1 Carbines would become $800 M1 Carbines after 20 years we'd have loaded up on them and tucked them in air tight containers. Same for all the U.S. Milsurp WWI and II rifles and handguns. But no one knew. Of course you'd have more chance purchasing real estate and knowing that it would increase that much over 20 years and have a chance of it increasing much more if you were a able to analyze populatoin trends in an area.
 
As to holding real estate for investment, don't forget you have to pay property taxes on it the whole time.

Houston is really booming, but there are still properties I drive by that have had for-sale signs on them for 10+ years, asking price is probably too high for the location, but for investments in real-estate you can't count on actually selling the property quickly unless you go below market prices.

Personally, unless you want a new hobby, I'd just invest in a mix of mutual funds, bonds and maybe one of the real-estate trusts. The game is rigged agains the little guy. I've friends who were all very happy with their accumen when their Lucent stock went from $25 to $65 a share, what's it worth now? No they weren't "smart" or lucky enough to bail out before the bubble burst. A bubble in rel-estate is not impossible either.

Personally I'll sell off my collection as a hobby, going from gun show buyer to gun show seller when I retire. I get my "profit" from the fun I'm having in the meantime.

--wally.
 
A friend of mine, who's fallen on hard times has recently been selling a few of his guns. Most were accumulated over the last 10-15 years. He's doubled his money, in most cases. Now, the ones that have been good "investments" are/were older guns (pre-1930s), in excellent original condition. He likes Winchester lever guns, so that's the bulk of his collection. When he bought them, he already knew which ones were rare and/or desireable, and knew he was getting a good price when he bought them.

In short, I think it pays to do alot of research and specialize in certain types/models/brands, and know when you're getting a good deal. I don't think there's very many "new" (less than 30 yrs. old) guns that are gonna appreciate very much in value (some have already, but i don't see them going much higher). (Some of the current "cheap" milsurps may go up some, as the supply dries up, but not by a whole lot, as most are too common.) Stick with the guns that are already "collectible" and at least relatively rare.

If it were me, and I had substantial amounts of cash, I prefer some of the old double shotguns like Parker Bros. and L.C. Smith. In fact a friend of mine just inherited 4 guns which she asked me to research and "appraise". 3 were nothing special, and in poor condition (well, one of those could be worth a bit, but would take more than its worth to restore). HOWEVER, the 4th gun turned out to be an 1898 manufactured L.C. Smith, Model A-1. when I researched it I found that they only made 738 of this model, from 1892-1898. While it wasn't in great shape (poorly stored), it was decent(no rust or serious wear, engraving still nice and sharp), and the engraving was incredible. There isn't a single part (including screws!) on this that wasn't engraved (by hand!). We took it down to Doug Turnbull Restorations (where my other friend has had lots of work done--incredible place, incredible workmanship, and just down the road from me.) and they quoted $7000 for a complete restoration. Sounded like alot of money EXCEPT the only other A-1 I found for sale was $18,000! If you could buy this one (it's not for sale, being kept as a family heirloom) for a reasonable price, you might almost double your money, real quick. But, of course, the market for high-dollar guns is smaller, but there's still enough people looking for these types of things, that a really high quality, rare gun will probably sell. Hard to say if the market will stay there, though.
 
or go from ~$5000 for a fully auto to $900 if they become legal to sell to public again.

I seriously doubt that will ever happen.
We can always hope
Quote:
or go from ~$5000 for a fully auto to $900 if they become legel to sell to public again.


Not all machine guns would immediately lose all their value. For example, a 1921 Thompson or a AK47 Vietnam bringback have part of their value in that they're machine guns, but part of their value is that they're old, rare and/or have some historical value. So they'd probably drop in price some, but not as much as an AR RDIAS or HK sear, which really are cheap little pieces of metal that should cost just a few dollars to buy.
True. This is like buying gold. Gold bullion may drop to $380 again, but a 1910 gold coin will always keep value better.
 
As others have said, the return on your investment is very small and subject to change based on the political enviroment. As far as cash value, guns are only worth what people are willing to pay for them and if you aren't allowed to sell them then they aren't worth a penny. The only way to turn a substantial profit on guns is to become a dealer, or better yet a distributor. but that requires lots of money and effort.

Most people who get into gun collecting do so because they love guns, not because they are looking to turn a profit. At the end of a collectors life, they may have some nice peices worth lots of $$, but they have also probably had hundreds of milsurps and cheep guns that were bought because the collector liked them not for their value.
 
Colt and Winchester are the only two American makes that seem to have sustained significant collector's interest. I like the older S&Ws, but they have never gone through the roof, at least yet. YMMV
 
If you don't know a good bit about firearms and enjoy them then I think it's not such a good idea.

I've done well with my "investments". However, it's a hobby for me and I enjoy having them. When I (or my son) sell them if there is a profit then great. If not, I have benefited in other ways.

There is also a lot of time to be spent if you're going to go looking for bargains and knowledge needed. Otherwise, you could loose a lot of cash pretty quick.

That being said. I think Class III stuff might be a good way to go. However, the time/hassle and $200 tax might make that something you don't wish to deal with.
 
Last year, I priced several nice Colt Pythons at around $700.00 per weapon. This year, those same nice guns go for a grand or better.
I just bought a 2-1/2" bright stainless Python, LNIB for $ 1200.00. I don't like to think I paid too much, rather I feel I may have bought-in a bit early...
I am investing in firearms and my criteria is: do not buy any "ugly" guns and buy only those weapons which are no longer made, trying for examples that have the box/papers included. Appreciation seems to be 10-40% per annum, depending on the desirability of the gun in question.
SatCong
 
Just to give you something to think about if you tuck $1000 in an index fund today that averages a 10% annual return (which is relatively easy) and compound your interest quarterly you'll have $4400 in 15 years. I wouldn't gamble on a gun value increase of $3400.

If you did the same thing with $7k (lets say you thought barrets would be banned), you'd be near $31k in those 15 years.
 
Contemporary firearms are not a good investment. Though prices will go up over time,they will not appreciate enough to hedge your 'retirement'. As several have already commented, the only 'investment grade' firearms are already pretty expensive, and it's not for neophytes.

If you want to really make money in that arena, you need to put together a themed collection, where the value of the collection as a whole is greater that the sum of its individual pieces, and market it as such. You will need to do a lot of research and educate yourself, but frankly, you'd do better studying the equity and real estate markets and making some smart moves there. The learning curve isn't as steep, nor are the markets as fickle.

Buy guns you enjoy and shoot them. Good luck, live well & prosper:)
 
Many good answers so far. I would just like to add a couple of things.

Collector's grade guns will vary in price according to the economy. People can pay higher prices when times are good. Many of those stories of bottom dollar prices for high grade fire arms date back to the Great Depression, when times were hard. In other words, collectibles will closely track the equity and real estate markets. An exception occurs in periods of high inflation, where collectibles may indeed outperform equities.

Real estate can be a fine area for investment, but it is not the slam dunk that so many people think it is. Successful real estate investing requires just as much, if not more, hard work than equities. Lots of research, lots of expertise, and just as many pitfalls and wrong turns as any other form of investment.

If I were to purchase firearms in anticipation of appreciation over a 10 to 15 year time span, I would look at what firearms today's 50 year olds thought were really cool 25 years ago. Same principle as buying the 60s muscle cars a few years ago would have been. Many men hit their 60s and are not interested in what is new, they want what was new when they were young.

In my case that means I would be buying N-frame S&Ws, blue steel, pre lock, NIB. Using this theory, I suppose someday, (hopefully after I am long gone), there will be old men collecting Glocks.:confused:
 
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