Iraq individual equipment lessons learned

[stevelyn]

Great critique on the equipment. I would only hope that the brass festooned desk drivers at the 5-sided geometric shape take it as it's written and with as little bureaucracy as possible implement the recommended changes.
The weakest link between the field troops and the report are the appropriators. Sadly by the time the changes are made they won't be anything like the ones proposed.
As a previous poster stated, I too was a proud member of Uncle Ronnie's army. The dinosaurs that served in those days believed in all honesty that if it wasn't issued, you couldn't have it or use it regardless of how effective it was at helping you complete your mission (It's not authorized!:banghead. You can't imagine how thrilled I was when Danner boots were authorized and approved as alternative footwear.


Okay, Who sabotaged the smilies?

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Hey WAIT a second...would the Federal E-FMJ violate the Geneva Convention!?! THAT would get you expansion in the current guns!

The problem with this is that the Hague (not Geneva) convention doesn't ban "hollowpoints." Rather, it wording is such that it bans the use of ammunition designed to cause uneccesary suffering. So, any expanding ammunition would be banned.

Note that the US Army's Adjutant General's Office has issued an opinion that the use of Sierra 168 grain BTHP Matchking bullets in 7.62mm sniper ammunition ~is~ legal under the Hague Convention, because they don't expand.

Of the options you present, perhaps the best way to improve stopping power would be to issue a rugged, stainless steel .357 Magnum loaded with FMJ Keith-style bullets. While I prefer S&Ws, I suspect the Ruger GP-100 would stand up to military use better, and is certainly easier to maintain.

 

[WilderBill]

Good article.
I liked the comment about needing a buckshot round for the
M 203.
I see the M16/M203 with that round as the great- grandson of the LeMat!

 

[Dorian]

As an ex-soldier in the army, I firmly believe that every soldier should have a backup weapon. I was relieved when I became an MP from a Communications Specialist, because I got a sidearm.

It was certianly better than throwing rocks, mind you, but I think a .45 pistol would be the ideal backup weapon.

Further down that line of thinking and more specifically, I think the USP fullsized .45 would be ideal. It is very similar to the m9 in many aspects, so it wouldn't be hard to get used too, and holds 5 more rounds of .45 than a 1911.

 

[B Coyote]

Further down that line of thinking and more specifically, I think the USP fullsized .45 would be ideal. It is very similar to the m9 in many aspects, so it wouldn't be hard to get used too, and holds 5 more rounds of .45 than a 1911.

It is also a very large pistol, with a long trigger-reach and wide grip. Two of the biggest complaints with the M9.

I'd bring back the 1911 in some form.

bc

 

[goon]

Well the odds of getting the 1911 back are probably pretty slim. I did see a pic of a soldier using one, but I doubt that is the norm.
The 9mm is the NATO round and we are probably gonna keep it.
I think they need to come up with either a lightly constructed FMJ round that will break apart when it hits, or one that has poor stabilization so it will tumble when it hits. Or maybe a round like the 5.45 soviet with the air cavity in its nose.
I would imagine that you could destabilize the 9mm like you would with anything else by using a different twist of rifling. That would keep us legal and allow us to keep using the same ammo. The loss in accuracy shouldn't be a big deal because a handgun is a close-up weapon anyhow. As long as they don't keyhole they should do OK.

 

[B Coyote]

Oh, I agree that getting the 1911 back will never happen (for general issue). However, the Marine Corps' Special Operations guys are, indeed, using the M1911 again (though it is greatly modified). CLICK HERE to read the article for yourself. It's worth your time.

bc

 

[Brian Williams]

here are a couple of good article/reports about equipment in Iraq.

http://www.sftt.org/article06022003a.html
http://www.sftt.org/PDF/article05122003a.pdf

 

[D.W. Drang]

Y'know, I haven't been retired for quite three years and there was quite a bit of that report I couldn't follow. Would someone care to translate, especially the alphabet soup? And are those photo captions sprinkled through the doc? If they are, can we have the photos, too?
(NOTE: And even some folks who are STILL serving may not follow it all.
(War Story Time: My last tour I was assigned to an aviation unit and the idiot First Sergeant decided that I was The Man to make Range Safety Officer at an aerial gunnery range. I pointed out that I was an MI Geek and not even authorized to DO aerial gunnery, had never been IN a helicopter with the door guns mounted, the EH variants couldn't mount door guns, but he wuldn't hear of it. So I went to the range meeting. After half an hour I said "So what's this Mark 1 device you keep taking about?" the Mark 1 device evidently being the laser designator they use(d) on the M60D's used for door guns.This got me UNassigned as RSO...)

 

[mons meg]

I'm confused by this pair of statements:

The general consensus is that every rifleman wants the M4 vice the M16A2.

and...

The most significant negative comment was reference the M4's range. In the
desert, there were times were soldiers needed to assault a building that may
be 500 + meters distant across open terrain. They did not feel the M4
provided effective fire at that range. The 82d Airborne soldiers wished
they had deployed with M14's at the squad level as the 101st did.

There's a reason the USMC makes everyone qualify on a course that includes a 500 yard line.

Oh, and I call BS on the sniper reports of "disintegrating" targets. I mean, the .50 BMG is a honkin' big round, but honestly...I'd have to see some video.

 

[Kharn]

Mons Meg:
Think of .223 with a good varmit bullet vs a squirrel (Pop goes the weasel, head goes one way, tail goes the other and all thats left behind is goo). I assume .50 vs human would have similar effects.
Especially if the .50 managed to touch off some explosives on the target.

Kharn

 

[jsalcedo]

Normally I would agree mons but my dad has similar stories about the 50 blowing huge holes in people and the shock of the round turning surrounding tissue to mush.

I'm not sure about disintegration or what they mean by that but under the right conditions a 750 grain round at over 2k FPS hitting soft tissue would be devastating.


I don't want to be morbid but I too think some video would shed
light on the subject.

 

[mephisto]

OK let me get this strait. You can shoot someone with a .50 cal but not an expanding 125-grain bullet. Or drop a 2,000 lbs. Bomb.

 

[mons meg]

Are those .50 rounds BTHP's or something?

Maybe if it set of a hand grenade...

 

[B Coyote]

OK let me get this strait. You can shoot someone with a .50 cal but not an expanding 125-grain bullet. Or drop a 2,000 lbs. Bomb.

You have it straight.

The rules of war, set by the Hague convention prohibit use of "expanding" ammunition.

The .50BMG and 2,000 pound bomb are considered humane. Expanding ammunition is not.

Simple, eh?

bc

 

[goon]

You have it straight.
The rules of war, set by the Hague convention prohibit use of "expanding" ammunition.


Yeah, but it says nothing about a 124gr FMJ tumbling and yawing through your torso.
They need to start with different twists and find out which one just barely stabilizes the 9mm just enough. Being barely stabilized should make it tumble when it hits.
A 9mm has similar energy to a .45 but no way to transfer it.

 

[Al Thompson]

I think the most interesting remark was how the soldiers liked the M203. The training ammo is junk (at least until '93). I think that once the soldiers were able to fire real M203 HE they appreciated the weapon.

IIRC, there is a lack of suitable ranges for HE or HEDP rounds. Any USMC types know if the Corps trains with the live stuff?

 

[mons meg]

The only range I was ever on at Lejeune we used the orange powder practice rounds. That was in Dec. of '90, right before we shipped out to SWA.

I thought I knew what recoil was until I fired the M203.

 

[Al Thompson]

Yeah, the training rounds were junk. Some lots had serious problems, other lots were "OK". I fired M203 HE out of an M79 back in the late 70's and was very impressed. Shot HE in a M203, ditto. For some reason we never got anything but training ammo from then on. Too bad.

 

[BigG]

What does PEO mean? A shortened version of PEOn? Not familiar with the new breed of acronyms. SNAFU and FUBAR were two I remember from my days. Ya, and FIGMO.