Iraq Myths and Reality

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http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200404230833.asp

April 23, 2004, 8:33 a.m.
Myth or Reality?
Will Iraq work? That’s up to us.

By Victor Davis Hanson

Myth #1: America turned off its allies. According to John Kerry, due to inept American diplomacy and unilateral arrogance, the United States failed to get the Europeans and the U.N. on board for the war in Iraq. Thus, unlike in Afghanistan, we find ourselves alone.

In fact, there are only about 4,500-5,500 NATO troops in Afghanistan right now. The United States and its Anglo allies routed the Taliban by themselves. NATO contingents in Afghanistan are not commensurate with either the size or the wealth of Europe.

There are far more Coalition troops in Iraq presently than in Afghanistan. As in the Balkans, NATO and EU troops will arrive only when the United States has achieved victory and provided security. The same goes for the U.N., which did nothing in Serbia and Rwanda, but watched thousands being butchered under its nose. It fled from Iraq after its first losses.

Yes, the U.N. will return to Iraq — but only when the United States defeats the insurrectionists. It will stay away if we don't. American victory or defeat, as has been true from Korea to the Balkans, will alone determine the degree of (usually post-bellum) participation of others.

Myth #2: Democracy cannot be implemented by force. This is a very popular canard now. The myth is often floated by Middle Eastern intellectuals and American leftists — precisely those who for a half-century damned the United States for its support of anti-Communist authoritarians.

Now that their dreams of strong U.S. advocacy for consensual government have been realized, they are panicking at that sudden nightmare — terrified that their fides, their careers, indeed their entire boutique personas might be endangered by finding themselves on the same side of history as the United States. Worse, history really does suggest that democracy often follows only from force or its threat.

One does not have to go back to ancient Athens — in 507 or 403 B.C. — to grasp the depressing fact that most authoritarians do not surrender power voluntarily. There would be no democracy today in Japan, South Korea, Italy, or Germany without the Americans' defeat of fascists and Communists. Democracies in France and most of Western Europe were born from Anglo-American liberation; European resistance to German occupation was an utter failure. Panama, Granada, Serbia, and Afghanistan would have had no chance of a future without the intervention of American troops.

All of Eastern Europe is free today only because of American deterrence and decades of military opposition to Communism. Very rarely in the modern age do democratic reforms emerge spontaneously and indigenously (ask the North Koreans, Cubans, or North Vietnamese). Tragically, positive change almost always appears after a war in which authoritarians lose or are discredited (Argentina or Greece), bow to economic or cultural coercion (South Africa), or are forced to hold elections (Nicaragua).

Myth #3: Lies got us into this war. Did the administration really mislead us about the reasons to go to war, and does it really now find itself with an immoral conflict on its hands? Mr. Bush's lectures about WMD, while perhaps privileging such fears over more pressing practical and humanitarian reasons to remove Saddam Hussein, took their cue from prior warnings from Bill Clinton, senators of both parties including John Kerry, and both the EU and U.N.

If anyone goes back to read justifications for Desert Fox (December 1998) or those issued right after September 11 by an array of American politicians, then it is clear that Mr. Bush simply repeated the usual Western litany of about a decade or so — most of it best formulated by the Democratic party under Bill Clinton. Indeed, we opted to launch that campaign in large part because of Iraq's work on WMDs.

No, the real rub is whether Iraq will work: If it does, the WMD bogeyman disappears; if not, it becomes the surrogate issue to justify withdrawing.

Myth #4: Profit-making led to this war. Then there is the strange idea that American administration officials profited from the war. Companies like Bechtel and Halliburton are supposedly "cashing in," either on oil contracts or rebuilding projects — as if any company is lining up to lure thousands of workers to the Iraqi oasis to lounge and cheat in such a paradise.

This idea is absurd for a variety of other reasons, too. Iraqi oil is for the first time under Iraqi, rather than a dictator's, control. And the Iraqi people most certainly will not sign over their future oil reserves to greedy companies in the manner that Saddam gave French consortia almost criminally profitable contracts. Indeed, no Iraqi politician is going to demand to pump more oil to lower gas prices in the country that freed him. Some imperialism.

All U.S. construction is subject to open audit and assessment. A zealous media has not yet found any signs of endemic or secret corruption. There really is a giant scandal surrounding Iraq, but it involves (1) the United Nations Oil-for-Food program, in which U.N. officials and Saddam Hussein, hand-in-glove with European and Russian oil companies, robbed revenues from the Iraqi people; and (2) French petroleum interests that strong-armed a tottering dictator to sign over his country's national treasure to Parisian profiteers under conditions that no consensual government would ever agree to. The only legitimate accusation of Iraqi profiteering does not involve Dick Cheney or Halliburton, but rather Kofi Annan's negligence and his son Kojo's probable malfeasance.

Myth #5: Israel has caused the United States untold headaches in the Arab world by its intransigent policies. The refutation of this myth could take volumes, given the depth of daily misinformation. Perhaps, though, we can sum up the absurdity by looking at the nature of West Bank demonstrations over the past few months.

The issues baffle Americans: Some Arab citizens of Israel, residing in almost entirely Arab border towns and calling themselves Palestinians, were furious about Mr. Sharon's offer to cede them sovereign Israeli soil and thus allow them to join the new Palestinian nation. Others were hysterical that two killers — who promised not merely the "liberation" of the West Bank, but also the utter destruction of Israel — were in fact killed in a war by Israelis. Both of the deceased had damned the United States and expressed support for Islamicists now killing our soldiers in Iraq — even as their supporters whined that we did not lament their recent departures to a much-praised paradise.

Elsewhere fiery demonstrators were shaking keys to houses that they have not been residing in for 60 years — furious about the forfeiture of the "right of return" and their inability to migrate to live out their lives in the hated "Zionist entry." Notably absent were the relatives of the hundreds of thousands of Jews of Baghdad, Cairo, Damascus, and other Arab capitals who years ago were all ethnically cleansed and sent packing from centuries-old homes, but apparently got on with what was left of their lives.

The Palestinians will, in fact, get their de facto state, though one that may be now cut off entirely from Israeli commerce and cultural intercourse. This is an apparently terrifying thought: Palestinian men can no longer blow up Jews on Monday, seek dialysis from them on Tuesday, get an Israeli paycheck on Wednesday, demonstrate to CNN cameras about the injustice of it all on Thursday — and then go back to tunneling under Gaza and three-hour, all-male, conspiracy-mongering sessions in coffee-houses on Friday. Beware of getting what you bomb for.

Perhaps the absurdity of the politics of the Middle East is best summed up by the recent visit of King Abdullah of Jordan, a sober and judicious autocrat, or so we are told. As the monarch of an authoritarian state, recipient of hundreds of millions of dollars in annual American aid, son of a king who backed Saddam Hussein in the first Gulf War, and a leader terrified that the Israeli fence might encourage Palestinian immigration into his own Arab kingdom, one might have thought that he could spare us the moral lectures at San Francisco's Commonwealth Club — especially when his elite Jordanian U.N. peacekeepers were just about to murder American citizens in Kosovo while terrorists in his country tried to mass murder Americans with gas.

Instead we got the broken-record Middle East sermon on why Arabs don't like Americans — as if we had forgotten 9/11 and its quarter-century-long precursors. Does this sensible autocrat — perhaps the most reasonable man in the region — ever ask himself about questions of symmetry and reciprocity?

Is there anything like a Commonwealth Club in Amman? And if not, why not? And could a Mr. Blair or Mr. Bush in safety and freedom visit Amman to hold a public press conference, much less to lecture his Jordanian hosts on why Americans in general — given state-sponsored terrorism, Islamic extremism, and failed Middle Eastern regimes — have developed such unfavorable attitudes towards so many Arab societies?

What then is the truth of this so-often-caricatured war?

On the bright side, there has not been another 9/11 mass-murder. And this is due entirely to our increased vigilance, the latitude given our security people by the hated Patriot Act, and the idea that the war (not a DA's inquiry) should be fought abroad not at home.

The Taliban was routed and Afghanistan has the brightest hopes in thirty years. Pakistan, so unlike 1998, is not engaged in breakneck nuclear proliferation abroad. Libya claims a new departure from its recent past. Syria fears a nascent dissident movement. Saddam is gone. Iran is hysterical about new scrutiny. American troops are out of Saudi Arabia.

True, we are facing various groups jockeying for power in a new Iraq; and the country is still unsettled. Yet millions of Kurds are satisfied and pro-American. Millions more Shiites want political power — and think that they can get it constitutionally through us rather than out of the barrel of a gun following an unhinged thug. After all, any fool who names his troops "Mahdists" is sorely misinformed about the fate of the final resting place of the Great Mahdi, the couplets of Hilaire Beloc, and what happened to thousands of Mahdist zealots at Omdurman.

So, we can either press ahead in the face of occasionally bad news from Iraq (though it will never be of the magnitude that once came from Sugar Loaf Hill or the icy plains near the Yalu that did not faze a prior generation's resolve) — or we can withdraw. Then watch the entire three-year process of real improvement start to accelerate in reverse. If after 1975 we thought that over a million dead in Cambodia, another million on rickety boats fleeing Vietnam, another half-million sent to camps or executed, hundreds of thousands of refugees arriving in America, a Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, an Iranian take-over of the U.S. embassy, oil-embargos, Communist entry into Central America, a quarter-century of continual terrorist attacks, and national invective were bad, just watch the new world emerge when Saddam's Mafioso or Mr. Sadr's Mahdists force our departure.

This war was always a gamble, but not for the reasons many Americans think. We easily had, as proved, the military power to defeat Saddam; we embraced the idealism and humanity to eschew realpolitik and offer something different in the place of mass murder. And we are winning on all fronts at a cost that by any historical measure has confirmed both our skill and resolve.

But the lingering question — one that has never been answered — was always our attention and will. The administration assumed that in occasional times of the inevitable bad news, we were now more like the generation that endured the surprise of Okinawa and Pusan rather than Tet and Mogadishu. All were bloody fights; all were similarly controversial and unexpected; all were alike proof of the fighting excellence of the American soldiers — but not all were seen as such by Americans. The former were detours on the road to victory and eventual democracy; the latter led to self-recrimination, defeat, and chaos in our wake.

The choice between myth and reality is ours once more.

**********************************************
 
Let's see if the N.Y. Times will pick this one up and put it on the front page.
 
I love reading Hanson, the man has his head on straight. Helps that he makes blubbering idiots out of the left peaceniks :neener:
 
ummm


I thought most of his conclusions were very short sighted and bordered on Michael Moore style causation.
 
Myth #1: America turned off its allies. According to John Kerry, due to inept American diplomacy and unilateral arrogance, the United States failed to get the Europeans and the U.N. on board for the war in Iraq. Thus, unlike in Afghanistan, we find ourselves alone.
Sounds like the author for the National Review is living in la la land.

Poland planning pull-out of troops from Iraq
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2004/0420/3783682793HM1SCALLY.html

Spain Plans to Hasten Withdrawl of Troops
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32541-2004Apr21.html
Spain to keep agents in Iraq
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9362518%5E1702,00.html

EXCLUSIVE - [British] Diplomats blast Blair for "U.S." foreign policy
By Lyndsay Griffiths

LONDON (Reuters) - A roll-call of former British diplomats blasted Tony Blair on Monday and said it was time for the prime minister to start influencing America's "doomed" policy in the Middle East or stop backing it.

In an unprecedented letter signed by 52 former ambassadors, high commissioners and governors -- the top ranks of British diplomacy -- Blair was urged to sway U.S. policy in the region as "a matter of the highest urgency".

The diplomats, among them former ambassadors to Iraq and Israel, told Blair they had "watched with deepening concern the policies which you have followed on the Arab-Israel problem and Iraq, in close cooperation with the United States.

"We feel the time has come to make our anxieties public, in the hope that they will be addressed in parliament and will lead to a fundamental reassessment," said the letter, sent to Blair on Monday and made available to Reuters.

A spokesman would not be drawn into how Blair would respond to the attack, which the diplomats believe is unprecedented in scope and scale.
…
http://www.reuters.com/locales/newsArticle.jsp?type=worldNews&locale=en_IN&storyID=4940453
 
Please Educate Me

Gentlemen, if I have the crux of the article correctly in my mind, he (and you) are saying that the policy (?) being pursued by Bush will lead to a lasting and stable peace in the region, and Iraq will have government that enjoys general support of it's population.....

Not one which is a puppet government standing up only through force of arms?

The looming civil wars will not materialize and the factions of Kurds, Shiiites, and Sunnis will be living in harmony under the benevolent auspices of a "security force" composed of a cross section of the population?


I choose to no longer argue future events, because the past year taught me that although I turn out to be right, no one on the other side will ever admit it. They just revise history and claim the original reasonings were completely different.

You may wish to bookmark this particular article from Mary Sunshine. About a year from now, it could be tragically comical.
 
Class: Today's Question Is.....

Which literal entry reflects a person likely to succeed in the business world without having to master the technical intricasies of the french fry machine?


"Told ya. "


"I thought most of his conclusions were very short sighted and bordered on Michael Moore style causation."



You have 30 minutes. BEGIN!
 
has anyone heard about a south korea deployment to iraq? I read something few weeks back but havent heard anything else. think it was newsmax or WND article. made it sound like a good sized deployment. any truth to it?
 
Which literal entry reflects a person likely to succeed in the business world without having to master the technical intricasies of the french fry machine?

Ah yes, the rocket scientist-mobys from the left.

w4rma was unaware of the fact that the Taliban wasn't formed untill the early 1990's when he posted his doctored version of a Reagan proclamation from 1983 that was altered to make it appear as if it mentioned the Taliban. And bountythenotsoquickerpickerupper failed to catch it because...(this exam is open notes, you have 3 hours, begin!).

:D :D BUH-hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! :D :D
 
I don't have to succeed in the business world. As I have just shown, I am a fully qualified soothsayer. I predicted your arrival rather accurately. :D

In all seriousness, I'd appreciate it if the Mods didn't view the exchange between bountyhunter and I as a series of personal attacks. I feel it's all in good fun, and am not in the least bit offended by his retort. I sincerely hope he feels the same as he is one of my favorite posters, at least when we're outside L&P! bountyhunter, if you feel offended, feel free to PM me and I'll gladly knock it off.

3...2...1...debate!
 
w4rma was unaware of the fact that the Taliban wasn't formed untill the early 1990's when he posted his doctored version of a Reagan proclamation from 1983 that was altered to make it appear as if it mentioned the Taliban. And bountythenotsoquickerpickerupper failed to catch it because...(this exam is open notes, you have 3 hours, begin!).
I am not sure what w4rma knows, but I sure as hell know about Reagan. In the early 80's, he armed and supported saddam Hussein in his war against Iran. Our intervention is the reason Iraq won that war and Hussein became the nasty thug he grew into. Reagan and Bush also supported the "Taliban fighters" (at the time called the Mujahadeen) in their war against the soviets because we wanted to destroy the soviet union. We did, and created a Muslim extremist regime in Afghanistan. After the Mujahadeen drove out the soviets, they continued to fight amongst themselves and eventually set up a government.... so repressive we had to take it out. BTW: the Stinger missiles we gave to the Mujahadeen to knock down MIG's with are what are attacking the C-130's flying in and out of Iraq. So far, our electronic countermeasures have worked well enough that none of our aircraft have been knocked down.

As I have said before, I'll leave the debating to those who find it amusing. I've been posting facts about the Bush administration as far back as four months before the invasion in the vain belief that if people knew the truth about it, they would stop it. I published more after the war in the vain belief that if the people knew what a massive and staggering series of blunders led to the war, some people would be thrown out of office.

Now, I really don't give a crap anymore. I see no reason to argue. It does no good because Bushniks just re-write history to fit the scenario of the day. Everything I said about this war and george Bush has been proven true and nobody cares and no Bushnik will ever admit it. I said there was no valid proof of a nuke program.... I said that the war would lead to a new Beirut where our soldiers walk around waiting to be ambushed... I said that the war would be fought as a guerilla conflict exactly the way the Afghans engaged the Soviets.... I said that Iraq and Al Qaeda were unconnected and invading Iraq would do nothing to cripple AQ.

The truth is I have done the resaearch and have forgotten more about Iraq, Al Qaeda, and Bin laden than most people will ever know. Examples:

1) the favorite BlameGame ploy of the Bushniks is to trot out the urban myth that Clinton was offered custody of Bin Laden and passed on it. here is the truth: Bin Laden went back to Saudi Arabia from the Afghan-Soviet war (followed by the seasoned fighters who became Al Qaeda) and did his best to start an Islamic revolution in SA. They arrested OBL and then let him go because the Saudis were afraid of angering his followers. Our buddies the saudis had OBL in custody on VALID charges.... and let him walk with just a revocation of his citizenship. What OBL did after that has a body count that continues to roll up every day.

2) Clinton tried twice to kill OBL through CIA sponsored hits. Since 9/11 had not yet happened, the killing had to be done covertly. Both attempts failed.

3) When we had OBL and his cronies cornered in Afghanistan, a minimal troop deployment was made by Bush to keep the majority of forces intact for the Iraq invasion. Funds allocated to the Afghan war were also diverted. In effect, the one good shot we had at OBL was sabotaged by GWB's fixation on Iraq.

4) OBL and Hussein were never in cahoots. In fact, our intel agencies knew for some time they hated each other. OBL swore publicly to topple all secular regimes in Arab countries, and he singled out Saudi Arabia and Iraq as the first he would attack because they were western allies.... yes, OBL considered Hussein to be a US ally since he beat up Iran for us back in the 80's. Hussein never supported OBl or Al Qaeda. period, but George Bush lies about it to this day.

BTW: I don't feel offended, just genuinely depressed.
 
I said that the war would be fought as a guerilla conflict exactly the way the Afghans engaged the Soviets

Now here is a point I can agree on. There are many interesting similarities between the Afghan war and the present conflict in Iraq. Most of them are tactical in nature, but in the last few weeks we've begun to see some strategic thinking on the part of a few of the insurgents. Surprisingly enough, it is not the Sunni's we need to be seriously worried about, but the Shia population in the south. I think it is essential that we wrap up this mess in Fallujah ASAP so we can focus on the problems developing to the south. If we see a popular Shia uprising against us, we have effectively lost. Our objectives will be unattainable at that point. I think the administration is slowly beginning to realize this and IMO is taking steps in the right direction. However, this BS in Fallujah needs to come to a screeching halt...NOW! Turn the Marines loose and let them mop this up quickly. The insurgents in Fallujah are not a real problem for us strategically, but their continued presence there is leading some of the more nefarious personalities down south to the conclusion that a power grab could be successful if the timing is just right. We need to demonstrate to them that this is not the case immediately. If we allow a tactical problem to create a strategic one, we deserve whatever we get.
 
bountyhunter:

I am not sure what w4rma knows, but I sure as hell know about Reagan. In the early 80's, he armed and supported saddam Hussein in his war against Iran. Our intervention is the reason Iraq won that war and Hussein became the nasty thug he grew into.

Apparently you don't know much about Reagan. No weapons of mass destruction of any kind, or precursers for such, were sold to Iraq by the US. US support to the Iraqis consisted of intelligence data only. The Anthrax sample sold to the Iraqis from the American Type Culture Collection in Rockville MD, was only one strain out of dozens the Iraqis already posessed, and was an attenuated strain suitable for vaccine research only, not weaponization.

Reagan and Bush also supported the "Taliban fighters" (at the time called the Mujahadeen) in their war against the soviets because we wanted to destroy the soviet union.

Again, it's amazing how you and w4rma cannot seem to grasp the idea that the Mujahadeen and the Taliban were two different, competing entities in Afghanistan. The Taliban was formed in the early 1990's, primarialy at the direction of foreign elements, in order to drive the original Mujahadeen out of Kabul and out of power.

We did, and created a Muslim extremist regime in Afghanistan. After the Mujahadeen drove out the soviets, they continued to fight amongst themselves and eventually set up a government.... so repressive we had to take it out.

No, and again you demonstrate a clear ignorance of modern SW Asian history. The US had little if any influence over the formation of the Afghan government after the Soviet puppet was driven out. Pakistani Army Intelligence was the conduit for most of the US assistance to the Mujahadeen. They called the shots at that point.

BTW: the Stinger missiles we gave to the Mujahadeen to knock down MIG's with are what are attacking the C-130's flying in and out of Iraq. So far, our electronic countermeasures have worked well enough that none of our aircraft have been knocked down.

No, the Stinger missiles provided to the Mujahadeen are over 20 years old at this point, and are most likely no longer operational. US military aircraft have defenses to the well known Stinger missile. It was ours after all. Provide at this time a link to a reference which has a verified account of a US aircraft in SW Asia being shot at with a Stinger missile.

As I have said before, I'll leave the debating to those who find it amusing. I've been posting facts about the Bush administration as far back as four months before the invasion in the vain belief that if people knew the truth about it, they would stop it. I published more after the war in the vain belief that if the people knew what a massive and staggering series of blunders led to the war, some people would be thrown out of office.

The problem is, you just don't have any facts. As you have demonstrated above.

Now, I really don't give a crap anymore. I see no reason to argue. It does no good because Bushniks just re-write history to fit the scenario of the day.

No, your "facts" just aren't. And it's w4rma and you who are the ones constantly trying to rewrite history by magically transporting the Taliban back in time by 10 years so that they can be hung around Reagan's neck.

Everything I said about this war and george Bush has been proven true and nobody cares and no Bushnik will ever admit it. I said there was no valid proof of a nuke program....

Your claim would be news to the UN inspection teams who found and destroyed tons of centrifuges, etc. from the Iraqi program.

The truth is I have done the resaearch and have forgotten more about Iraq, Al Qaeda, and Bin laden than most people will ever know. Examples:

All of it apparently in the slanted, inaccurate, leftist web-blogs. You just really don't have a good grasp of even the most recent history of Iraq. As demonstrated by your claim that no nuclear weapons development program in Iraq has ever been discovered.

1) the favorite BlameGame ploy of the Bushniks is to trot out the urban myth that Clinton was offered custody of Bin Laden and passed on it. here is the truth: Bin Laden went back to Saudi Arabia from the Afghan-Soviet war (followed by the seasoned fighters who became Al Qaeda) and did his best to start an Islamic revolution in SA. They arrested OBL and then let him go because the Saudis were afraid of angering his followers. Our buddies the saudis had OBL in custody on VALID charges.... and let him walk with just a revocation of his citizenship. What OBL did after that has a body count that continues to roll up every day.

Bin Laden was living in the Sudan. The Sudanese government offered to arrest and extradite him to the US. Bill Clinton has admitted, on audio tape, that the offer was made and he turned it down. The story has been confirmed by Clinton, the US Ambassador to the Sudan at the time, the Sudanese Government, etc.

2) Clinton tried twice to kill OBL through CIA sponsored hits. Since 9/11 had not yet happened, the killing had to be done covertly. Both attempts failed.

Clinton refused to order an airstrike on a location where Bin Laden was known with 99% certainty to be located, out of fear for collateral damage. That again is someting that is an admitted fact by the Clinton Whitehouse.

3) When we had OBL and his cronies cornered in Afghanistan, a minimal troop deployment was made by Bush to keep the majority of forces intact for the Iraq invasion. Funds allocated to the Afghan war were also diverted. In effect, the one good shot we had at OBL was sabotaged by GWB's fixation on Iraq.

I believe the British were given a large role in operational planning for the Afghanistan invasion due to their long experience there. Their recommendation, and it was a good one, was to minimize US force levels so as not to spark Afghani resistance. It worked. the US would have likely suffered higher losses otherwise.

4) OBL and Hussein were never in cahoots. In fact, our intel agencies knew for some time they hated each other. OBL swore publicly to topple all secular regimes in Arab countries, and he singled out Saudi Arabia and Iraq as the first he would attack because they were western allies.... yes, OBL considered Hussein to be a US ally since he beat up Iran for us back in the 80's. Hussein never supported OBl or Al Qaeda. period, but George Bush lies about it to this day.

Bush was acting on the best intelligence available to him after 8 years of Clinton Administration cutbacks in the US Intelligence budget. Senior Clinton Administration Officials also felt there was a linkage.

BTW: I don't feel offended, just genuinely depressed.

Understandable. It must be tough to have your best arguments proven false time after time, as yours are.
 
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Our intervention is the reason Iraq won that war and Hussein became the nasty thug he grew into. Reagan and Bush also supported the "Taliban fighters" (at the time called the Mujahadeen)
Hussein was a nasty thug back in the early 1970s. He needed no assistance in that arena.

The "Northern Alliance" was the remnants of the 1980s domestic Mujahadeen. The Taliban, which originated in the Pakistani madrassas, were their direct opposition and were trained by foreign fighters, some of whom participated in the 1980s war against the USSR.

And since it's w4rma's favorite device, here's a nice CNN cut and past. Note the date.
Afghanistan: the regime and their U.N battle
June 8, 2001 Posted: 11:19 AM EDT (1519 GMT)




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By CNN's Craig Francis

The protracted struggle between the United Nations and the Taliban regime that controls most of Afghanistan shows no sign of an imminent resolution.

Since the repressive regime destroyed the ancient Buddhas of Bamiyan -- two towering ancient statues -- the Taliban have shunned international opinion and refused to bow to U.N. sanctions.

The sanctions are intended to force the Taliban to hand over the Saudi-born militant Osama Bin Laden, accused of plotting the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in which more than 250 people died.

But rather than cave in to debilitating restrictions, the Taliban have -- as seen with the stage-managed destruction of the Buddhas -- refused to budge even the minutely to international pressure.

Treating Bin Laden as a guest in their country, the Islamic fundamentalists have consistently rejected U.N. and U.S. demands for his handing over.

Since the world first became aware of the Taliban in 1994, only three countries -- Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates -- have formally recognized the regime.

Devastated by more than two decades of war, Afghanistan's capital Kabul now lies in ruins, and the Taliban's stated goal of creating the pure Islamic state has seen the implementation of a string of Draconian laws.

Public executions
Women are largely barred from education or employment, except in healthcare, and must remain completely covered and in the company of a male relative when leaving the home.

The teaching of other religions, rejection of Islam, homosexuality and female adultery can all result in the death penalty. Public executions are staged in sports grounds and amputations have been introduced to deter criminals.

The Taliban's criminal code has attracted global media coverage, something the regime has courted by meting out advertised public punishments.


Osama Bin Laden: at the center of the impasse between U.N. and Taleban
Last year the regime's radio station broadcast to the nation that a young woman caught trying to flee Afghanistan with a man who was not her relative had been stoned to death.

On another occasion, it was announced that 225 women had been rounded up and sentenced to a lashing for violating the dress code. Another woman had the top of her thumb amputated for wearing nail polish.

Three men accused of sodomy were sentenced to death by being partially buried in the ground and then having a wall pushed over on them by a bulldozer.

And when the Taliban castrated and then hanged the former communist president and his brother in 1996, they left their bloodied bodies dangling from lampposts in busy downtown Kabul for three days.

Photographs of the corpses duly appeared in news magazines and newspapers around the world.

Taliban origins
The Taliban owes its present status as a regional power to one of its few allies, Pakistan.

The militia first came to prominence when they were assigned by the Pakistan government to protect a convoy trying to open up a trade route between Pakistan and Central Asia.

So effective were the religious students trained by the mujahedin, or Islamic fighters, that they advanced through an Afghanistan fractured by warring Tajik and Uzbek warlords, eventually taking the capital in September 1996.

The regime, largely comprised of ethnic Pashtuns, gained wider popularity by bringing order to a lawless land and through their refusal to deal with the existing leaders.

The Taliban now control all but the far north of the country. Afghanistan's seat in the U.N. is held by ousted president Burhanuddin Rabbani.

Concessions to break the impasse by either the U.N. or the Taliban seem remote.

No doubt aware of the tide of world opinion turning against the effectiveness of sanctions in general and Iraq in particular, the Taliban -- if they care at all -- will be hoping the U.N backs down in the face of their resolute indifference to the global trade embargo.

For the U.N.'s part, Secretary-General Kofi Annan has admitted that sanctions alone will not be enough to bring the Taleban to heel. With the Taliban steadfastly refusing to talk, it is yet to be seen how the international community can assert any authority over the Islamic fundamentalist regime.
 
As long as we're on the subject of the Taliban. If Bush was so interested in catching/killing OBL (or any Islamic fundamentalist terrorist, for that matter) before 911, why did he give the Taliban a 43 million dollar grant?

How Washington Funded the Taliban
by Ted Galen Carpenter

Ted Galen Carpenter is vice president for defense and foreign policy studies at the Cato Institute and is the author or editor of 14 books on international affairs including the forthcoming "Bad Neighbor Policy: Washington's Futile War on Drugs in Latin America" (Palgrave/ St. Martin's).

…
Yet the Bush administration did more than praise the Taliban's proclaimed ban of opium cultivation. In mid-May, 2001, Secretary of State Colin Powell announced a $43 million grant to Afghanistan in addition to the humanitarian aid the United States had long been providing to agencies assisting Afghan refugees. Given Callahan's comment, there was little doubt that the new stipend was a reward for Kabul's anti-drug efforts. That $43 million grant needs to be placed in context. Afghanistan's estimated gross domestic product was a mere $2 billion. The equivalent financial impact on the U.S. economy would have required an infusion of $215 billion. In other words, $43 million was very serious money to Afghanistan's theocratic masters.
…
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html
 
w4rma:

As long as we're on the subject of the Taliban. If Bush was so interested in catching/killing OBL (or any Islamic fundamentalist terrorist, for that matter) before 911, why did he give the Taliban a 43 million dollar grant?

I am suprised that you didn't accuse Reagan of funding the Taliban. You seem to be solidly convinced they were in existance in the early 1980's.

The payments were a brief revivel of an earlier Klintoon Administration effort to buy the cooperation of the Taliban in extraditing Bin-Laden. Something which would not have been necessary if Bubba Klintoon hadn't mishandled an earlier Sudanese offer to extradite Bin-Laden to US custody.
 
You know, you should actually read the threads you post to. This was proved to be wrong almost as soon as it was declared the last freakin' time it was posted.
This article, by the AP, is more recent:
Poland May Set Plan for Iraq Pullout
Tue Apr 27,10:38 AM ET
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040427/ap_on_re_mi_ea/poland_iraq_1

This one from the Beeb isn't so recent:
Poland was 'misled' over Iraq WMD
Thursday, 18 March, 2004, 22:25 GMT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3525356.stm
 
Geez, bountyhunter.....

"BTW: I don't feel offended, just genuinely depressed."
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Don't let that get around there in Fascist-fornia...

There'll be folks along to 'counsel' you soon as they learn of this.:eek:


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"Now, I really don't give a crap anymore. I see no reason to argue."
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That's not a good sign.:(


w4rma:

Thank you for posting the links rather than entire articles.

It's much more streamlined, and we can have a selection as well.:)
 
w4rma,

Just want to head off any misunderstanding, as the links (and especially the article headlines they point to) might be a little misleading:

"Poland May Set Plan for Iraq Pullout"

Every coalition contingent damn well ought to have set a plan for pullout, because none of them are supposed to stay in Iraq indefinitely. The responsible desire to plan for an inevitable pullout shouldn't be taken as a suggestion that a pullout will be made prematurely. Spain and Honduras bailed out on us, but those of us still in Iraq don't lack for resolve.
:)

No matter how you slice it, Iraq right now needs our help.
That IS why we're still there, and not all of the coalition's resources are put into a show of strength, not at all!



iraqpinoy.jpg

The tiny Philippine contingent serves under Polish command (South Central Iraq). A good number of them are policemen, training Iraqi police how to guard their border with Iran. The remainder are soldiers and medical personnel --this group regularly travels in a tiny convoy from settlement to settlement, providing medical aid and conducting a survey to help Aid foundations plan future medical assistance.

pinoycop_iraq.jpg

They report good relations with the Iraqi locals.
The number of documented Filipino workers in Iraq is around 300, although undocumented workers probably push the number up to 2,000 Filipino nationals working there --most of them from years back, even before the first Gulf War, and in good standing with native Iraqis. I suppose these expat workers are a good intelligence resource for the tiny Philippine contingent to fall back on, and a good cushion for any potential social frictions with the locals.

The medical convoy once came under ambush, but the attack evaporated before anything more than surprise and minor damage to vehicles was inflicted --possibly because the ambushers realized the convoy was Filipino:

The Filipinos' carry a stealth weapon that even US troops covet,
a high-tech hand-held electronic device that holds up to 1,200 different modes of 'fire':
A Karaoke "magic-mike" microphone, with a built in music chip (1,200+ song melodies with video). Even most Iraqi's can't get enough of it, and it's a good icebreaker whenever the convoy pulls into an Iraqi community. Elvis and Sinatra are popular. Even the Poles, the Americans or the Thais borrow the magic-mike back at the base. (This, from a friend: the son of a policeman recently returned from many months of work in the contingent.)

I've ....digressed. ;)
Anyway.
The Philippine government is constantly renewing its 'pullout plan'.
With over 70% of the population supporting the commitment to rebuilding Iraq, and participation in the coalition's peacekeeping efforts, we really do intend to go the distance.

Again, the Iraqis really need our help.
The coalition is there to give it to them.
I think it's a little unfair that the US, which has given so much blood for the liberation of Iraqis, seems to now be playing 'bad cop', so that other coalition members can play 'good cop'.



[**edited to remove references to Philippine troop strength, w/c may be inappropriate information to post, though it IS available online]
 
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