La Pistoletta
Member
Why would police officers use revolvers, anyway? Reliable and powerful, yes, but when it's time to reload, your opponent can sew your wife a skirt before you're done...
Is .45 more accurate than 9mm?
- Thread starter ChuckB
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Revolver Reload
Reliable and powerful, yes, but when it's time to reload, your opponent can sew your wife a skirt before you're done...
You need to check out ol' Jerry Mikuleck doin' his thing with a speedloader.
He'll have that wheelie back in battery and in your face before your magazine hits the ground. The hand IS quicker than the eye...
Chitty-Chitty Bang Bang
Tuner
Reliable and powerful, yes, but when it's time to reload, your opponent can sew your wife a skirt before you're done...
You need to check out ol' Jerry Mikuleck doin' his thing with a speedloader.
He'll have that wheelie back in battery and in your face before your magazine hits the ground. The hand IS quicker than the eye...
Chitty-Chitty Bang Bang
Tuner
La Pistoletta
Member
Expert gunmen, yes, but most police officers wouldn't, I think. 
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Point/Counterpoint
La Pistoletta said:
Expert gunmen, yes, but most police officers wouldn't, I think.
Excellent point...and I rather hoped you'd mention it. My question is:
Why WOULDN'T a cop practice the moves with his issued equipment?
Knowing that at some point in a L.E. career, he/she will likely have a need for all the proficiency that can be mustered. Smart cops shoot thousands of rounds in scenarios that mimic real confrontations in preparation for that one mad moment. Why don't they practice for the very real possibility that
they will have to reload if that mad moment goes horribly wrong?
Curious, what?
Food for thought...
Tuner
La Pistoletta said:
Expert gunmen, yes, but most police officers wouldn't, I think.
Excellent point...and I rather hoped you'd mention it. My question is:
Why WOULDN'T a cop practice the moves with his issued equipment?
Knowing that at some point in a L.E. career, he/she will likely have a need for all the proficiency that can be mustered. Smart cops shoot thousands of rounds in scenarios that mimic real confrontations in preparation for that one mad moment. Why don't they practice for the very real possibility that
they will have to reload if that mad moment goes horribly wrong?
Curious, what?
Food for thought...
Tuner
La Pistoletta
Member
They should. Though, a higher capacity weapon lowers the need to reload in the first place, and even then it would be faster. How about the Five-seveN? Light pistol, 20 round magcap, and supposedly AP, or the effect of it, anyway. The only thing would be the stopping power, no?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Another Point/Counterpoint
T'was said:
A higher capacity weapon lowers the need to reload in the first place,
Two schools of thought on that issue, and I'm of the old school that feels
that a hi-cap weapon encourages sloppy marksmanship. The man with a
20 or 30 round box magazine in his rifle tends to spray and pray, while
the one with the bolt-action Mauser tends to hold and squeeze. There was
a very good reason that the issue M-14s in Vietnam had the selectors locked out for most of the guys. It conserved ammo and encouraged aimed
fire....which works.
I've often said that the duffer with the AK-47 isn't nearly as dangerous as the man with the scoped sporter. The duffer will hose down the landscape while the marksman is settling the cross hairs on his antagonist's chest.
Right-wing extremists with M-16s aren't the danergous ones. They look
scary and intimidate the masses, but the one to watch out for is Bubba with
his grandpa's thutty-thutty...but please don't tell Dan Rather about this.
What the Left-Libs don't know won't hurt'em.
Just pen me...Old Tuner
T'was said:
A higher capacity weapon lowers the need to reload in the first place,
Two schools of thought on that issue, and I'm of the old school that feels
that a hi-cap weapon encourages sloppy marksmanship. The man with a
20 or 30 round box magazine in his rifle tends to spray and pray, while
the one with the bolt-action Mauser tends to hold and squeeze. There was
a very good reason that the issue M-14s in Vietnam had the selectors locked out for most of the guys. It conserved ammo and encouraged aimed
fire....which works.
I've often said that the duffer with the AK-47 isn't nearly as dangerous as the man with the scoped sporter. The duffer will hose down the landscape while the marksman is settling the cross hairs on his antagonist's chest.
Right-wing extremists with M-16s aren't the danergous ones. They look
scary and intimidate the masses, but the one to watch out for is Bubba with
his grandpa's thutty-thutty...but please don't tell Dan Rather about this.
What the Left-Libs don't know won't hurt'em.
Just pen me...Old Tuner
La Pistoletta
Member
But what if you practice with revolver type capacity (load magazine with 6 rounds and reload rounds between every mag change) and only fill it up on patrol?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
The Drill
La Pistolletta asked:
But what if you practice with revolver type capacity (load magazine with 6 rounds and reload rounds between every mag change) and only fill it up on patrol?
Believe it or not, you touched on my practice drill.
I load my first magazine with 7 rounds, slingshot the slide to chamber the top round, and holster the weapon (safety on, of course)
Two magazines on the belt are loaded with 6 each. I shoot doubles
at three targets and reload with the chamber hot, safety off, and don't allow the slide to lock empty until the last shot, which is the signal to stop the timer and end the drill. It teaches me to shoot a maximum of 6 rounds between reloads, and after a little practice, I found myself reaching for the
button on the 6th round automatically. In other words, it will become a programmed response eventually. It makes for a neat impromptu match
between friends, and injects a little time/pressure into the drill.
Incidentally, I also engage my three targets while moving toward cover, as I don't want to teach myself to be caught in the open during a reload.
Works pretty well for me, anyway.
Cheers!
Tuner
La Pistolletta asked:
But what if you practice with revolver type capacity (load magazine with 6 rounds and reload rounds between every mag change) and only fill it up on patrol?
Believe it or not, you touched on my practice drill.
I load my first magazine with 7 rounds, slingshot the slide to chamber the top round, and holster the weapon (safety on, of course)
Two magazines on the belt are loaded with 6 each. I shoot doubles
at three targets and reload with the chamber hot, safety off, and don't allow the slide to lock empty until the last shot, which is the signal to stop the timer and end the drill. It teaches me to shoot a maximum of 6 rounds between reloads, and after a little practice, I found myself reaching for the
button on the 6th round automatically. In other words, it will become a programmed response eventually. It makes for a neat impromptu match
between friends, and injects a little time/pressure into the drill.
Incidentally, I also engage my three targets while moving toward cover, as I don't want to teach myself to be caught in the open during a reload.
Works pretty well for me, anyway.
Cheers!
Tuner
Longbow
Member
Yup, that's really old school thinking!
Modern training had change that attitude, go to any shooting academy and you'll see that the ones that finishes on top is always the ones shooting an autoloader.
Common revolvers are just too slow to reload, and that's just the fact. I'm not saying it cannot be effective, if the scenario doesn't call for fast reloads, then a revolver might be okay. But me, I tend to like to be prepared for all possible scenario. I'll pick an autoloader for field use anytime.
Jerry Miculek's ability with revolver is phenominal, but take note that he is using a gun that uses moon clips, its a drop it in and shoot, no twisting or pushing motion or cumbersome speed loader unit to deal with. He is fast and accurate with it, that's why he is very popular (in the shooting sport circuit) and a champion. But not all has or will have his ability.
Modern high capacity handguns managed to evolve in the police/military hands for some good reasons, the ability to fire multiple rounds without reloading too often in the heat of battle is one of them.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Old School
Longbow said:
Yup, that's really old school thinking!
----------------------------
Yup. I reckon I'm too old to run and shoot with the young'uns any more.
and:
Modern training had change that attitude, go to any shooting academy and you'll see that the ones that finishes on top is always the ones shooting an autoloader.
Also take notice that the top shooters can actually shoot...or as an old
gunfighter observed: "Speed's fine. Accuracy's final." (Wasn't that Wyatt Earp?)
And finally, as Willie Nelson (another of my heroes) stated in Barbarosa:
"Ain't nothin rattles a man more than somebody takin' dead aim at him when he oughta be runnin' like a stripe-assed ape."
If you keep your head and mind your front sight, it ain't likely that you'll need a reload. Another thing that rattles a man is watchin' his pard
wiggle around on the deck pukin' blood and hollerin' for his mama. Takes
the fight right out of'em.
Chitty-Chitty, Bang-Bang!
Tuner
Longbow said:
Yup, that's really old school thinking!
----------------------------
Yup. I reckon I'm too old to run and shoot with the young'uns any more.
and:
Modern training had change that attitude, go to any shooting academy and you'll see that the ones that finishes on top is always the ones shooting an autoloader.
Also take notice that the top shooters can actually shoot...or as an old
gunfighter observed: "Speed's fine. Accuracy's final." (Wasn't that Wyatt Earp?)
And finally, as Willie Nelson (another of my heroes) stated in Barbarosa:
"Ain't nothin rattles a man more than somebody takin' dead aim at him when he oughta be runnin' like a stripe-assed ape."
If you keep your head and mind your front sight, it ain't likely that you'll need a reload. Another thing that rattles a man is watchin' his pard
wiggle around on the deck pukin' blood and hollerin' for his mama. Takes
the fight right out of'em.
Chitty-Chitty, Bang-Bang!
Tuner
Longbow
Member
Ain't Hollywood Grand!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Hollywood ElGrande'
Ain't Hollywood Grand!
Yessir.
Was it Peter Capstick that said:
"I don't care a whit about these people who can split a pea at 300 paces.
What I want to know about a man is how he does on a charging lion at
6 feet."
Mighta been John Taylor...
The ol' memory ain't what it used ta be.
Keep your wits about you and 6 will do. Lose your head, and about all that'll save you is the will of God.
To arms!
Tuner
Ain't Hollywood Grand!
Yessir.
Was it Peter Capstick that said:
"I don't care a whit about these people who can split a pea at 300 paces.
What I want to know about a man is how he does on a charging lion at
6 feet."
Mighta been John Taylor...
The ol' memory ain't what it used ta be.Keep your wits about you and 6 will do. Lose your head, and about all that'll save you is the will of God.
To arms!
Tuner
I don't know about the inherent accuracy of the cartridges. I do know that some rifle cartridges are more inherently accurate than others.
In my own experience I have to completely agree with 45 Shooter. I have handloaded extensively for both calibers for years. It has been my experience that most anything I throw together will shoot well out of my 1911s. I had to work hard to find good accurate loads for my 9mm and even then wasn't thrilled by them. This has held true for perhaps a dozen different handguns in each caliber.
The .45 seems to shoot fine with cast bullets, plated bullets, or jacketed bullets. It seems to shoot fine with anything from 155 grain SWCs up to 255 grain SWCs and everything in between. It seemed to shoot fine with a half dozen or more powders in any cases I happened to pick up lying around.
The 9mm doesn't do any of this for me. I have never found a good load using anything but jacketed bullets. It seems sensitive as to what case you are using and also to what powder you are using.
Now if you worked at it, and found a good shooting load out of both guns, I would imagine they would exhibit similar accuracy. But for me, this is a lot easier to achieve with a .45.
In my own experience I have to completely agree with 45 Shooter. I have handloaded extensively for both calibers for years. It has been my experience that most anything I throw together will shoot well out of my 1911s. I had to work hard to find good accurate loads for my 9mm and even then wasn't thrilled by them. This has held true for perhaps a dozen different handguns in each caliber.
The .45 seems to shoot fine with cast bullets, plated bullets, or jacketed bullets. It seems to shoot fine with anything from 155 grain SWCs up to 255 grain SWCs and everything in between. It seemed to shoot fine with a half dozen or more powders in any cases I happened to pick up lying around.
The 9mm doesn't do any of this for me. I have never found a good load using anything but jacketed bullets. It seems sensitive as to what case you are using and also to what powder you are using.
Now if you worked at it, and found a good shooting load out of both guns, I would imagine they would exhibit similar accuracy. But for me, this is a lot easier to achieve with a .45.
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