Is CCW a Ruse?

[ORAG]

I believe I have the right to bear arms. I am both a law abiding Citizen and a retired member of the Militia. I carry my Baretta 94F in a helmet bag when I travel. I do not keep a clip in the gun but do carry it in the bag.
My question is, does the requirement to register my weapon by most CCW laws just make me register my gun or does it really mean I get to carry. I am seriously wanting the CCW permit but don't want the Government know what guns I have. Registration is the first step to confiscation.
ORAG

 

[taliv]

you retired from a militia?

 

[TC-TX]

To my knowledge - No State CCW requirements contain a provision for registering weapons with anyone.

There is no Federal requirement to register weapons.

Texas has no such provision.

I think you are worried about something that does not exist...

 

[ORAG]

Kansasa Militia

By Kansas State Law, the National Guard is the Militia until federally activated. There is a provision to start a "State Militia" when and if the National Guard is activated in a full mobilization.

 

[Pilgrim]

The PDRK requires that serial numbers of pistols that will be carried be recorded on the permit.

Pilgrim

 

[motorep]

So you're carrying an empty weapon around in a bag. Not ccw in most venues.
What registration requirements are you referring to?

 

[carpettbaggerr]

- No State CCW requirements contain a provision for registering weapons with anyone.

Well, NY does. Model and Serial number on pistol permit. For every pistol owned.

It depends on where you live, ORAG.

Welcome aboard, btw.

 

[TC-TX]

I stand corrected...

The PDRK requires that serial numbers of pistols that will be carried be recorded on the permit.

Well, NY does. Model and Serial number on pistol permit.

I suspect there may be others?

Thanks for the heads up... I did not know that.

 

[Lupinus]

Some states (I believe Nevada is one) requires you to qualify with the pistol/s you want to carry and have them listed on the permit. Maybe not technicaly gun registration but hey a fish is a fish by any other name.

Either way right or not (which it is keep AND BEAR) get the permit, it isn't worth the legal ramifications. Even if Kansas makes you list the guns, that is only one gun (or the number of guns you want to be able to carry if you need to list the carry guns) and not all of them. If they begin confiscations sacraficing enough to make them happy and move on their way may not be a bad idea, while the rest are hidden of course.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Orag, you're kinda all over there.

1. Even putting your unloaded gun in a bag might not be considered legal in all states--Massachusetts comes to mind for me, although I didn't check.

2. Most states won't require you to register your gun to get a CCW--if you tell us which states you want to travel through, we might be able to help more.
Better yet, start by checking out www.packing.org and then come back with any questions.

Good luck.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Michigan has a registration requirement for handguns, but it's not linked to CCW. If you want to own a handgun in the state of Michigan, it has to be "safety inspected." Which is the "racist" way of saying registered.

The law was started in 1927 as a racist measure to keep minorities from owning handguns. Now it's just plain old registration.

 

[gunsmith]

an unloaded gun?

no such animal

any way inho an unloaded gun is a very expensive paperweight.

I believe I have the right to bear arms

I do too, but if you're caught in NYC with only
the Constitution as your permit, you're on your way
to jail...unless your wealthy and famous, like David Crosby

 

[Old Fuff]

Arizona doesn't have gun registration. In fact it's prohibited by law...

If/when you apply for a CCW the gun you use isn't recorded during the process. And the permit itself does not carry any description of any firearm, or any serial numbers.

In fact it doesn't even have your picture on it.

If you live elsewhere that's your business.

 

[atlctyslkr]

Sounds like Georgia

Arizona doesn't have gun registration. In fact it's prohibited by law...

If/when you apply for a CCW the gun you use isn't recorded during the process. And the permit itself does not carry any description of any firearm, or any serial numbers.

In fact it doesn't even have your picture on it.

If you live elsewhere that's your business.

No registration although no law prohibiting it. Cities can't pass more stringent laws except for discharging in residential areas ect.

Doesn't matter what you want to carry here. I know some states have restrictions on certain calibers and mags. I know someone who has a permit and she doesn't even own a gun!

No picture either here, but they do put your right index finger print. Everytime I renew I always ask that since I'm left handed why don't you put my left finger print?

 

[FPrice]

To my knowledge - No State CCW requirements contain a provision for registering weapons with anyone.

The People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts requires that all firearms purchased while a subject...er, resident of Massachusetts be registered with the Criminal Systems History Board. This is incidental to (and separate from) CCW requirements which do not require any listing of the firearms you would carry if you have a Class A License to carry Firearms for All Lawful Purposes (which allows CCW).

If you move into Massachusetts with firearms you are not required by law to register them although some people will try to tell you that you must.

 

[Michael Courtney]

Like many licensing requirements, CCW removes the presumption of innocence and burdens the citizen to establish his innocence in order to exercise what should be a basic liberty which everyone should enjoy unless due process has proven some reason why they should not.

However, since we have bought the "public safety" excuse for requiring licensing in other areas, why should CCW be any different. For example, most food service operators are required to have a number of licenses and inspections to "prove" their innocence regarding the sanitation of their operation. In the absence of a license, they are "presumed guilty" of presenting a safety risk. In the same way, a person who carries without a CCW license is "presumed guilty" of presenting a safety risk.

Note that this presumption of guilt behind most licensing is not necessarily a part of several kinds of licensing which are necessary to allow for use of shared public resources. In other words, drivers licenses, hunting licenses, and broadcast licenses are necessary and just because they allow limited public reseouces (roads, game, radio spectrum) to be shared in an efficient and safe manner and are important mechanisms for enforcing the rules governing the sharing of those public resources.

If a license is not really necessary to help manage a shared public resource, it is really about short-circuiting the Constitutional presumption of innocence so that the burden of proof is removed from law enforcement and the citizen engaging in the act "without a license" can be presumed guilty without any real proof.

It is a government expediency that always tramples the rights of the citizen, removing the Constitutional mandate that the government prove, for example, that a restaurant is operating under unsanitary conditions or that the person carrying a gun has some criminal intent.

Michael Courtney

 

[XavierBreath]

Qualified Kansans will be able to carry concealed handguns as early as January 2007 under a bill put into law March 23, 2006, despite Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius’ veto. Much of the restrictions/requirements are still on the drawing board. At the moment, nobody is certain if CCW in Kansas will entail only one gun per carrier, which would in effect create a registration of the firearm.

I will say that years ago when I got my first CCW, before Louisiana was a shall issue state, it was for a specific handgun. The handgun's serial number was recorded by the sheriff's office. I still own this gun fifteen years later (although i no longer carry it), and nobody has kicked my door down looking for it. Since then, Louisiana became a shall issue state, and you can carry whatever gun you want with the license.

A new Kansas law the governor signed 4/16/05 makes it legal to carry a firearm anywhere in Kansas as long as it's unloaded and in an enclosed container. Taking effect July 1, the law says local governments can't impose more stringent controls.

This is one Sheriffs reading of the law in Kansas.

Office of Sheriff, Harvey County,

Byron L. Motter, Sheriff
120 E. 7th - P.O.Box 231
Newton, Kansas 67114
(316) 284-6960 - FAX (316) 284-6967

August 7, 2001

C.XXXX GXXXXXX
1237 X Road
Chase, KS 67524

Dear Mr. GXXXXX,

In response to your letter dated August 2, 2001 reference gun laws in Kansas, I have enclosed a copy of A21-4201 which deal with the weapon laws of Kansas. As you can see in Article 1 subsection (4) you can not carry on one’s persons a weapon concealed. What is considered visible is a matter of interruption[sic]. In Harvey County a weapon must be in plain sight, a gun in a holster on the outside of the pants is fine. A strap over the trigger is not considered concealed. A gun inside of your pants may be considered concealed, because a person can not control a piece of clothing that may conceal the weapon at times.

As for carrying in a vehicle the weapon must be in plain view, on the floor, seat, dash etc.

You have number 4 correct. But, no matter if it is legal or not if you are carrying a weapon in public, people will become anxious and will in all probability call law enforcement to check you out. Also if the business does not want you on their property with a weapon they have the right to request you to leave.

Best wishes,
SIGNATURE
Byron L. Motter
Sheriff
Harvey County, KS.

More info here.

 

[Harve Curry]

Short answer , YES.
If you believe the 2nd Amendment gives you the right to keep and bear arms without infringement.

By trading your right for a revocable permit,
that has an expiration date,
fees attached ,
personal background check,
limits on where (unlike a LEO)
limits on type of arm.
serial numbers (some states)
photographed and finger printed.

I think it safe to say that any of the signers of the Constitution would have put up with that. More likely they just carried a pistol in their belt and under their coat when they felt the need. That's freedom .

 

[JohnBT]

"Is CCW a Ruse?"

No. CCW = Concealed Carry Weapon.

As far as the law requiring a permit or license to carry a CCW goes...either get one or don't. I imagine anyone posting on a gun forum is already a gun owner, so your cover is blown and your name is on the list.

John

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If you believe the 2nd Amendment gives you the right to keep and bear arms without infringement.

By trading your right for a revocable permit,

What "trade?" You talk as if before Shall Issue passed concealed carry without a permit was legal.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

Sure was.

Of course, I'm thinking of the turn of the century.

The 19th century.

The right was traded away a long time ago.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Nobody "traded" anything. Arkansas had a law against going armed long before anyone on this board was born. That's true with most states.

"Shall Issue" represents a positive step forward -- both in theory and practice. We can carry where our fathers and grandfathers could not. And people who used to be bombarded with ani-gun propaganda can see the beneficial effects of Shall Issue. As a result, one state after another has adopted Shall Issue -- often overcoming what would have been insurmountable obstacles for other issues, such as gubernatorial vetos.

The next phase is "Vermont Carry." I predict it will sweep the country like Shall Issue has.

 

[Jim March]

As a practical matter, shall-issue is a step forward from either non-issue or "limited and elitist issue" (California, New Jersey, Illinois, Mass, NY, etc.).

(And yes, Illinois has a CCW system. For politicians ONLY...the absolute worst-case situation.)

The good news is this: we've now got over 39 states with widespread civilian self defense allowed on a non-elitist basis. With millions of legal "packers", none of whom are causing trouble in their own states or others via reciprocity.

At this point, any action against those CCW holders in ANY state will act as a "tripwire", as a "canary in the mineshaft", warning us that the nation is coming utterly unglued. The more people who get permits and join in being this "tripwire" the better as it will be a more significant event if tried and it will be less likely to be attempted.

The REAL "final straw" would be any attempt to outlaw scoped bolt-action rifles.

Lookit: there are two "second amendments", or rather two "levels" of the 2A.

The first level is the original intent: that "we the people" should have the same level of physical force as the government. This culminated with the Bill Of Rights of 1792, after developing among several state and colonial charters/constitutions prior to that.

This version of the 2A is now largely dead, EXCEPT for widespread ownership of highly accurate rifles able to make shots against human targets at 800ft or more. AND THE SKILLS TO USE THEM. This represents a final last-ditch possibility of "voting from the rooftops" - hideous to contemplate, something NOBODY should be eager for, yet the possibility must remain alive.

The second version of the 2A developed after the Civil War, culminating in the 14th Amendment. This version is about defense against criminals, whether wearing bedsheets or not. This version of the 2A is about concealed handguns, carbine rifles of medium caliber and high capacity like the old Henry in 44Rimfire and the .44-40 Winchester. By giving newly freed blacks the complete civil rights of the Bill Of Rights (per the authors of the 14th Amendment such as John Bingham), while NOT yet giving them political rights such as voting, jury duty and militia duty (that was the 15th Amendment!), the 14th Amendment "decoupled" the civil right to self defense from the militia right of community defense and being watchdogs against government oppression.

It is the 14th Amendment view that is popular today with politicians like George Dubya Bush. NOT THE ORIGINAL VIEW.

But.

By scoring CCW, you help advance the 14th Amendment/1868-era view in the public's mind, which is at the present time not able to cope with either view.

When the 1868 view of the 2nd is more popular, a percentage of people will advance further and gain the ability to swallow the 1792 version.

 

[biere]

Make a list of all the forms you have filled out for electric, water, sewer, health care, credit cards, drivers license, vehicle registration, bank account, loan application, job interview, job review, or anything else that is common these days like building permits and what not. Dang, I forgot phone and cell phone.

I feel there is only one group of people who can actually say they have a reason for not applying for a ccw permit and it is because they have tried to "drop out" of today's society that sucks information from you so it can store it in information databases. Society also sucks fees, taxes, and money from you in many ways.

If you live in today's society I feel that it is not a big deal to fill out the application and get a ccw permit.

If you have truly dropped out, and I don't mean the thousands of people who think they have, then you would be unwilling to even think about getting the ccw permit because you most likely have been living under the radar so long your application might look a little odd when you filled it out.

Others have commented on the legality of your method of carry today, and please change clip to magazine since I doubt carring a clip of sks or garand ammo around with the handgun would get you into the sort of trouble that a loaded magazine for your gun might get you into.

The short version is that if you live in today's society and have some of the common luxuries this society offers then I think the hassle of the ccw permit will be outweighed by what you stand to lose if you get caught doing what you do now.

If you wish to not follow society's permit regs then I suggest you consider tossing all of society's leashes and fences and other restrictive items.

 

[Sistema1927]

24 posts so far and nobody has chimed in with:

"Everytime you say 'clip', Jesus kills another kitten."