AZLibertarian
Member
I agree with jeanfor. The root of the French problem is their social system. Get rid of that and most (but not all) of their problems with immigrant populations will solve themselves.
Is France in trouble because of cheap labour?
- Thread starter Lucky
- Start date
- Status
I would say that cheap labor is never cheap. While the employer may never pay the price of "cheap" labor, society sooner or later will.
Case in point, Walmart is costing CA millions of dollars in welfare because they do not pay thier employees enough to live on. Or how about Mcdonalds employees who become drug dealers due to poverty?
-Bill
Case in point, Walmart is costing CA millions of dollars in welfare because they do not pay thier employees enough to live on. Or how about Mcdonalds employees who become drug dealers due to poverty?
-Bill
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
Whoa...whm1974 said:
If a guy deals drugs it isn't McDonald's fault. He made his choice, and HE ALONE is responsible for its consequences.
Walmart doesn't cost the state a penny. In fact Walmart pays big bucks to the state in the form of taxes. It doesn't matter where a person works - if he doesn't earn enough to make ends meet then he needs to solve his problem himself. Get a higher paying job, or get a second job, or cut costs, or...
"McDonalds made me do it" is no excuse for dealing drugs.
"Walmart made me do it" is no excuse for being a freeloader.
Cheap labor represents an opportunity for people to avoid being a burden on society. Entry-level job opportunities are in short supply in France. That's a big part of the problem right now.
If McDonalds decieds to pay so little that thier employees have to do illegal actives to make ends meet, then they should share the blame.
Walmart pays less in taxes then what what it would cost them to pay decent wages. How can someone get a better paying job if there are not any around? Or cut cost if he is barely meeting the cost of living?
Cheap labor is still a burden on society if they have to get welfare or charity to survive. So this isn't really such a thing as cheap labor.
-Bill
Stand_Watie
Member
whm1974 said:
Really we all are to blame. Remember the man last year who was despondent about the failure of his sword sharpening business and went on a slashing rampage? When society fails it's burger flippers and sword sharpeners by not paying them enough to feed their family, we should all be locked right up beside them when they become criminals.
Edited to add sarcastic smiley
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redneck2
Member
Since when is it MY fault that someone else doesn't make enough money???
Pal, if you want to make more, work two or three jobs (like I did) or get an education (like I did)
Why the hell should someone that flips burgers make as much as a doctor or engineer???
One of the biggest failings is that we don't teach basics anymore. Basic economics, basic math. Your "burger flippers" can't make change from a $5 but they want $50k a year.
What any one jobs pays is very simple....it's what it costs to replace you. If you make $75k a year doing a job and someone else will do the same thing for 50K, then you either take a pay cut or lose your job. May be to someone in the States, may be someone in China.
See, paying a high minimum wage sounds good...until a Big Mac costs $15 apiece.
I'm old enough that I can see were're pretty much screwed as a society. Too many free-loaders riding the wagon and too few pulling. When the prescription drug thing kicks in (about 25%-40% of the current federal budget depending on estimates) and the pension guarantee fund kicks in for the steel industry and airlines that have billions and billions in unfunded pensions, our tax rate is going to make France look like chicken feed. Now, factor in Social Security that has 2 workers paying for each retiree and it's got disaster written all over it.
Man does that sum it up. Part of my sales territory is Gary/Hammond/East Chicago Indiana. I've watched those areas decline over the last 18 years to the point that they're pretty much a total ghetto. We've paid minorities (and now whites) for 3 generations to breed like bunnies and get paid to do it. Last statistic I saw from the Feds was that 82% of black children were born to unwed mothers. If you work (like I do), you and I pay for those kids......Hoosier Health-Wise (free health care), food stamps, Section 8 housing, school lunch programs. List is endless
My nephew just got married a year ago. His bride had 3 kids from a previous "live-in". She just had 2 surgeries in the last year and complained that insurance pays less than it did when she was on welfare. They actually have a co-pay now
The entitlement mentality has grown to the point that it's swallowing up the workers
Stand_Watie
Member
stand_watie said:
redneck2 said:
No offense, but you've got to get a better sarcasm detector. The sword sharpener job position was supposed to be a hint
CTMB590A1
Member
Lou Dobbs gets it right.....
U.S. policy on immigration is a tragic joke
By Lou Dobbs
Special for "The Republic"
Aug. 28, 2005 12:00 AM
There is a common front in our illegal-alien crisis, the war on drugs and the global war on terror. That front line is easily defined as our nation's borders, airports and seaports. And Arizonans know only too well the pain and problems of living and working on the front line of our border with Mexico.
South of that border is a corrupt and ineffective government run by President Vicente Fox, who has no apparent incentive to control the flow of drugs being shipped from Mexico into the United States and every incentive to continue the exportation of illegal aliens into this country. This year, in fact, remittances back to Mexico from the estimated 20 million Mexican citizens living in the United States, most of them illegally, surpassed oil as Mexico's No. 1 source of foreign revenue.
In the United States, an obscene alliance of corporate supremacists, desperate labor unions, certain ethnocentric Latino activist organizations and a majority of our elected officials in Washington works diligently to keep our borders open, wages suppressed and the American people all but helpless to resist the crushing financial and economic burden created by the millions of illegal aliens who crash our borders each year.
They work just as hard to deny the truth to the American public. That's why almost every evening on my CNN broadcast we report on this country's "Broken Borders." The truth is that U.S. immigration policy is a tragic joke at the expense of hard-working middle-class Americans.
What has been the response of the Bush administration? It proposed a guest-worker program giving legal status to millions of illegal aliens. But national opinion polls reveal an overwhelming majority of Americans are contemptuous of such cynical proposals. The latest Zogby poll shows only 35 percent of those surveyed support the president's approach. The American people want our borders secure, want our immigration laws enforced and want those who hire illegal aliens both punished and held liable for the economic and social costs of breaking our laws.
We are a nation of immigrants, and there is no more diverse and welcoming society than ours. But we are first a nation of laws, and upholding those laws and our national values makes this great country of ours possible.
Arizonans are to be commended for passing Proposition 200 and creating the political will that led to last week's declaration of the state of emergency by Gov. Janet Napolitano. Neither act is sufficient to solve our illegal-immigration crisis, but both acts constitute a beginning in resolving what may well be the most critical issue facing the United States.
Last week, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said he wanted to "stabilize" our borders and create more detainee beds and expedite more deportations. Stabilizing our borders is not enough. If we do not take control of our borders, deportations amount to little more than inconvenience to illegal aliens and whomever else wants to enter our country.
Failure to secure our borders means that we will continue to lose the war on drugs and lose a generation of Americans to those drugs. It also means the crushing burden of our failed immigration and homeland security policies will continue to fall exclusively on the shoulders of working men and women. Not only do illegal aliens and those who employ them cost the nation tens of billions of dollars in social services, principally in health care and education, they also depress wages for American citizens by an estimated $200 billion a year.
The most reasonable response I have seen to this illegal-immigration crisis is legislation introduced by one of your state's distinguished senators, Jon Kyl, who co-sponsored a bill with Sen. John Cornyn. That bill seeks 10,000 new Border Patrol agents and detention beds, fraud-resistant Social Security cards, increased penalties for employers and current illegal aliens would have to leave the United States to apply for permanent citizenship.
Reform begins with the truth. And our elected officials must begin to recognize the reality that a war on terror and war on drugs can be won only by securing our borders and that any reform of our immigration policies must begin first at the front line of the crisis: our border with Mexico.
Anything less is just another sad joke, and we know at whose expense.
Lou Dobbs is the anchor and managing editor of CNN's "Lou Dobbs Tonight."
U.S. policy on immigration is a tragic joke
By Lou Dobbs
Special for "The Republic"
Aug. 28, 2005 12:00 AM
There is a common front in our illegal-alien crisis, the war on drugs and the global war on terror. That front line is easily defined as our nation's borders, airports and seaports. And Arizonans know only too well the pain and problems of living and working on the front line of our border with Mexico.
South of that border is a corrupt and ineffective government run by President Vicente Fox, who has no apparent incentive to control the flow of drugs being shipped from Mexico into the United States and every incentive to continue the exportation of illegal aliens into this country. This year, in fact, remittances back to Mexico from the estimated 20 million Mexican citizens living in the United States, most of them illegally, surpassed oil as Mexico's No. 1 source of foreign revenue.
In the United States, an obscene alliance of corporate supremacists, desperate labor unions, certain ethnocentric Latino activist organizations and a majority of our elected officials in Washington works diligently to keep our borders open, wages suppressed and the American people all but helpless to resist the crushing financial and economic burden created by the millions of illegal aliens who crash our borders each year.
They work just as hard to deny the truth to the American public. That's why almost every evening on my CNN broadcast we report on this country's "Broken Borders." The truth is that U.S. immigration policy is a tragic joke at the expense of hard-working middle-class Americans.
What has been the response of the Bush administration? It proposed a guest-worker program giving legal status to millions of illegal aliens. But national opinion polls reveal an overwhelming majority of Americans are contemptuous of such cynical proposals. The latest Zogby poll shows only 35 percent of those surveyed support the president's approach. The American people want our borders secure, want our immigration laws enforced and want those who hire illegal aliens both punished and held liable for the economic and social costs of breaking our laws.
We are a nation of immigrants, and there is no more diverse and welcoming society than ours. But we are first a nation of laws, and upholding those laws and our national values makes this great country of ours possible.
Arizonans are to be commended for passing Proposition 200 and creating the political will that led to last week's declaration of the state of emergency by Gov. Janet Napolitano. Neither act is sufficient to solve our illegal-immigration crisis, but both acts constitute a beginning in resolving what may well be the most critical issue facing the United States.
Last week, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said he wanted to "stabilize" our borders and create more detainee beds and expedite more deportations. Stabilizing our borders is not enough. If we do not take control of our borders, deportations amount to little more than inconvenience to illegal aliens and whomever else wants to enter our country.
Failure to secure our borders means that we will continue to lose the war on drugs and lose a generation of Americans to those drugs. It also means the crushing burden of our failed immigration and homeland security policies will continue to fall exclusively on the shoulders of working men and women. Not only do illegal aliens and those who employ them cost the nation tens of billions of dollars in social services, principally in health care and education, they also depress wages for American citizens by an estimated $200 billion a year.
The most reasonable response I have seen to this illegal-immigration crisis is legislation introduced by one of your state's distinguished senators, Jon Kyl, who co-sponsored a bill with Sen. John Cornyn. That bill seeks 10,000 new Border Patrol agents and detention beds, fraud-resistant Social Security cards, increased penalties for employers and current illegal aliens would have to leave the United States to apply for permanent citizenship.
Reform begins with the truth. And our elected officials must begin to recognize the reality that a war on terror and war on drugs can be won only by securing our borders and that any reform of our immigration policies must begin first at the front line of the crisis: our border with Mexico.
Anything less is just another sad joke, and we know at whose expense.
Lou Dobbs is the anchor and managing editor of CNN's "Lou Dobbs Tonight."
redneck2
Member
Noted...
unfortunately, it's too close to reality
AZLibertarian
Member
Let me connect CTMB590A1's point that Lou Dobbs is right when he says...
Lou Dobbs is flat wrong on immigration. I'll skip his point about drug importers entirely, and only allow him that border security is important in regards to pre-empting terrorists.
Our immigration and economic problems here are basically the same as the French. While we have a much better system than they do, we have too many of the same socialist incentives so admired in Europe. "Free" school lunches, "free" education, "free" hospital ER visits. The list of the things we get "free" is endless. Here is what attracts immigrants: The chance to work hard and get things for free [and BTW, let's admit that many of our forefathers came here for exactly these same reasons.]. Yet what we're really complaining about is that these things aren't really "free". Taxpayers know that somebody has to pay for all that stuff. We know that some guy goes on food stamps and he says "WhooHooo! I got a whole box of Free Cheese!" Yet, in the interest of market stability, the government provides dairy subsidies to the milk producer, which prevent him from being economicly punished when he over-produces his milk, allowing too much milk onto the market, so the government buys up the milk and makes cheese out of it, only to be warehoused to the point of having to distribute it to the underclass to keep the warehouses from bursting. This cheese ain't free. It costs you and me--the taxpayers--every step of the way. You can substitute milk for "Prescription Healthcare", or any of a hundred other things. If you want to solve the immigration problem [and I don't agree that it's a problem.], get rid of the socialist parts of our economy, and it'll solve itself. But then, most of us would not have access to the "free cheese" that we seek. "What? Pay for my cheese? I have a right to my free cheese! Cheese ought to be free!"
[For a brief digression...Dobbs praises Arizona voters for passing Prop. 200 and our governor, Janet Napolitano, for declaring a state of emergency along our border--getting the Fed's off their duff regarding what's going on down there. For those who don't know, Prop. 200 basically said that, in order to get state services--vote, primarily--you'd have to show evidence that you were here legally (generally through a driver's licence.). Napolitano, being a Democrat and heavily beholden to her voters, initially opposed Prop. 200 as being racist. After the voters in the state voted it into law, her position was: "Sure, all you Republican voters have now made it law, but I don't agree with it, so I won't enforce it." It was only after the Republicans started to get beaten up over immigration that she pulled her "State of Emergency" stunt. Sorry to be so cynical, but she is nothing but a political opportunist.]
If you have a good job today, here's my suggestion. Every day, you ought to have this thought: "How can I do whatever it is I do better/faster/cheaper?" Because if you're not having that thought every day, I guarantee you that somebody else is. If your job gets out-sourced, it is because somebody else answered this question before you. There is no such thing as a decent or "living" wage. You earn your wage. It is not something you're entitled to. If you're not earning enough at your job, find another one. Don't whine to me that "There aren't any good jobs" or that "Walmart doesn't pay enough." [And BTW, how many of us here think of the wages Walmart pays when we're there picking up the WWB they regularly have on sale?] Make yourself worth whatever you think you need, and it'll happen.
and redneck2's point that
Lou Dobbs is flat wrong on immigration. I'll skip his point about drug importers entirely, and only allow him that border security is important in regards to pre-empting terrorists.
Our immigration and economic problems here are basically the same as the French. While we have a much better system than they do, we have too many of the same socialist incentives so admired in Europe. "Free" school lunches, "free" education, "free" hospital ER visits. The list of the things we get "free" is endless. Here is what attracts immigrants: The chance to work hard and get things for free [and BTW, let's admit that many of our forefathers came here for exactly these same reasons.]. Yet what we're really complaining about is that these things aren't really "free". Taxpayers know that somebody has to pay for all that stuff. We know that some guy goes on food stamps and he says "WhooHooo! I got a whole box of Free Cheese!" Yet, in the interest of market stability, the government provides dairy subsidies to the milk producer, which prevent him from being economicly punished when he over-produces his milk, allowing too much milk onto the market, so the government buys up the milk and makes cheese out of it, only to be warehoused to the point of having to distribute it to the underclass to keep the warehouses from bursting. This cheese ain't free. It costs you and me--the taxpayers--every step of the way. You can substitute milk for "Prescription Healthcare", or any of a hundred other things. If you want to solve the immigration problem [and I don't agree that it's a problem.], get rid of the socialist parts of our economy, and it'll solve itself. But then, most of us would not have access to the "free cheese" that we seek. "What? Pay for my cheese? I have a right to my free cheese! Cheese ought to be free!"
[For a brief digression...Dobbs praises Arizona voters for passing Prop. 200 and our governor, Janet Napolitano, for declaring a state of emergency along our border--getting the Fed's off their duff regarding what's going on down there. For those who don't know, Prop. 200 basically said that, in order to get state services--vote, primarily--you'd have to show evidence that you were here legally (generally through a driver's licence.). Napolitano, being a Democrat and heavily beholden to her voters, initially opposed Prop. 200 as being racist. After the voters in the state voted it into law, her position was: "Sure, all you Republican voters have now made it law, but I don't agree with it, so I won't enforce it." It was only after the Republicans started to get beaten up over immigration that she pulled her "State of Emergency" stunt. Sorry to be so cynical, but she is nothing but a political opportunist.]
If you have a good job today, here's my suggestion. Every day, you ought to have this thought: "How can I do whatever it is I do better/faster/cheaper?" Because if you're not having that thought every day, I guarantee you that somebody else is. If your job gets out-sourced, it is because somebody else answered this question before you. There is no such thing as a decent or "living" wage. You earn your wage. It is not something you're entitled to. If you're not earning enough at your job, find another one. Don't whine to me that "There aren't any good jobs" or that "Walmart doesn't pay enough." [And BTW, how many of us here think of the wages Walmart pays when we're there picking up the WWB they regularly have on sale?] Make yourself worth whatever you think you need, and it'll happen.
> I think France's crimes in Algiers
it was war and I have to hear about any war without this sort of 'crimes'
I don't excuse it. in fact I think that we (French) made mistakes by conquering colonies, then by fighting against independantists... but above all by inviting former conquered to become citizens
> I'm pleased that my country has been blessed with, all things considered, competent leadership and a good vision of how to progress over the past 200 years.
I don't think that French colonialists were more cruel than any other one
the bad move was the violent colonialistic trend, all other deeds became at least potential and often probable thereafter
US whites did, since 1800, many actions (for instance against native indians) as plainly inhumane as the Battle of Algiers was. I'm not of the spiritualistic type and don't clearly understand this 'karma' thing, but I'm affraid that somebody will pay our crimes (or at least the avoidable ones which were deliberately committed). at 'best' some of our descendants will suffer from some vague but difficult-to-cope-with psy burden of culpability
> It doesn't matter if the immigrants are French citizens, or even if those immigrants are 2nd or 3rd generation natives of France. If they have African genes, they're outsiders.
true, albeit (as jeanfor wrote) this is of paramount importance if you are not 'perfectly' white (North Africans are white but it often does not shows up enough), and being muslims or animist is an aggravating condition. this rule is now far less powerful than it was and it looses ground each day but in some circles you can feel it
> If McDonalds decieds to pay so little that thier employees have to do illegal actives to make ends meet, then they should share the blame.
I fail to understand. if McD does not offer those jobs then these people will have no income or be more of a burden, through complete welfare, for all the others. who wants them to have no income or be a complete (instead of a partial, thx to McD wages) burden?
even after any whole social reform there will be people unable (or not wanting) to fit. the less frightening ways to cope with them are, AFAIK, those of our 'goods-and-work'-oriented society
> How can someone get a better paying job if there are not any around?
some job-unemployed (and even some ranters!) do create jobs
> Too many free-loaders riding the wagon and too few pulling
I agree. same here (France). if our society was to last one will fight to avoid being oftenly deliberately riding free, because of concern for his honor, his security or something along those lines. when the motto becomes "I can only get problems by being motivated or concerned" some disgusting matter soon hits the fan
> When the prescription drug thing kicks in
same here. France is barbiturates-ridden
> We've paid minorities (and now whites) for 3 generations to breed like bunnies and get paid to do it
that's _very_ dangerous for all, even for the long-eared ones
> Our immigration and economic problems here are basically the same as the French. { ... ] The list of the things we get "free" is endless. Here is what attracts immigrants [ ... ] I have a right to my free cheese!
IMO you are right and there is a strong link between this, political opportunists and lack of any real citizen commitment.
commitment leads to coherent behaviour, and as you wrote it "how many of us here think of the wages Walmart pays when we're there picking up the WWB [...]?". I only have respect for any people acting accordingly to their ideas, even if I don't share them. therefore any people ranting against WalMart while buying there is at best a moron
it was war and I have to hear about any war without this sort of 'crimes'
I don't excuse it. in fact I think that we (French) made mistakes by conquering colonies, then by fighting against independantists... but above all by inviting former conquered to become citizens
> I'm pleased that my country has been blessed with, all things considered, competent leadership and a good vision of how to progress over the past 200 years.
I don't think that French colonialists were more cruel than any other one
the bad move was the violent colonialistic trend, all other deeds became at least potential and often probable thereafter
US whites did, since 1800, many actions (for instance against native indians) as plainly inhumane as the Battle of Algiers was. I'm not of the spiritualistic type and don't clearly understand this 'karma' thing, but I'm affraid that somebody will pay our crimes (or at least the avoidable ones which were deliberately committed). at 'best' some of our descendants will suffer from some vague but difficult-to-cope-with psy burden of culpability
> It doesn't matter if the immigrants are French citizens, or even if those immigrants are 2nd or 3rd generation natives of France. If they have African genes, they're outsiders.
true, albeit (as jeanfor wrote) this is of paramount importance if you are not 'perfectly' white (North Africans are white but it often does not shows up enough), and being muslims or animist is an aggravating condition. this rule is now far less powerful than it was and it looses ground each day but in some circles you can feel it
> If McDonalds decieds to pay so little that thier employees have to do illegal actives to make ends meet, then they should share the blame.
I fail to understand. if McD does not offer those jobs then these people will have no income or be more of a burden, through complete welfare, for all the others. who wants them to have no income or be a complete (instead of a partial, thx to McD wages) burden?
even after any whole social reform there will be people unable (or not wanting) to fit. the less frightening ways to cope with them are, AFAIK, those of our 'goods-and-work'-oriented society
> How can someone get a better paying job if there are not any around?
some job-unemployed (and even some ranters!) do create jobs
> Too many free-loaders riding the wagon and too few pulling
I agree. same here (France). if our society was to last one will fight to avoid being oftenly deliberately riding free, because of concern for his honor, his security or something along those lines. when the motto becomes "I can only get problems by being motivated or concerned" some disgusting matter soon hits the fan
> When the prescription drug thing kicks in
same here. France is barbiturates-ridden
> We've paid minorities (and now whites) for 3 generations to breed like bunnies and get paid to do it
that's _very_ dangerous for all, even for the long-eared ones
> Our immigration and economic problems here are basically the same as the French. { ... ] The list of the things we get "free" is endless. Here is what attracts immigrants [ ... ] I have a right to my free cheese!
IMO you are right and there is a strong link between this, political opportunists and lack of any real citizen commitment.
commitment leads to coherent behaviour, and as you wrote it "how many of us here think of the wages Walmart pays when we're there picking up the WWB [...]?". I only have respect for any people acting accordingly to their ideas, even if I don't share them. therefore any people ranting against WalMart while buying there is at best a moron
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Waitone
Member
Once again our discussion devolves into a discussion of the differential in wages. Wages are not set in a vacuum. Wages are set in response to a blizzard of cost factors, some of which are related to what a prospective worker WANTS to make. Companies don't make decisions based on wages. Decisions are made on total costs of which wages are one factor.
Working hard, smart, innovative,etc. is a necessary component of a successful company but it is not the only component of a successful company. There are a host of factors in running a company that far exceed the labor cost component. Now while you are working hard, smart and innovatively you can lose you job because other factors are much larger or more important.
The entire cost structure of doing business in the US is out of line with a highly competitive world. Costs are being screwed down on the labor component but nothing, I repeat, nothing is being done to reduce government mandated costs on American business. So sit there smug and nod knowingly about how smart you are to know you have to work hard, smart and innovatively and you will still lose you job because of government imposed costs. Attacking lazy workers is entirely appropriate but do not neglect the cost of government. Government is not your employment friend so don't give it a pass.
Working hard, smart, innovative,etc. is a necessary component of a successful company but it is not the only component of a successful company. There are a host of factors in running a company that far exceed the labor cost component. Now while you are working hard, smart and innovatively you can lose you job because other factors are much larger or more important.
The entire cost structure of doing business in the US is out of line with a highly competitive world. Costs are being screwed down on the labor component but nothing, I repeat, nothing is being done to reduce government mandated costs on American business. So sit there smug and nod knowingly about how smart you are to know you have to work hard, smart and innovatively and you will still lose you job because of government imposed costs. Attacking lazy workers is entirely appropriate but do not neglect the cost of government. Government is not your employment friend so don't give it a pass.
AZLibertarian
Member
wingman said:That is the problem you don't see the problem.
I use three paragraphs to begin to explain my thoughts, and if I'm reading you right, you say that because I don't agree with you, that I'm part of the problem.
If you could explain your position a bit further, I might have something to debate with.
CAnnoneer
Member
AZLibertarian said:
Perhaps wingman will elaborate. Meanwhile, I'll give my own reasons why I think illegal immigration is a problem:
1) it is illegal
2) it costs me money - my taxes pay for social programs that directly or indirectly result from it
3) it creates social problems - ghettoing, enclaves, criminality
4) it creates economic problems - lowers wages, exports capital
5) it creates political problems - sellouts and racist politicians that base their power on representing the "rights" of illegals and rile up leftists and legal immigrants to support idiotic measures out of globalism, pity, sympathy, guilt etc.
6) open borders are a security weakness, esp. these days
Please elaborate how the above are not problems and how they would not be fixed or helped by elimination of illegal immigration by opaque borders, extradition, and harsh penalties for businesses that hire illegals.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
The troubles aren't from "cheap labor"; they come in part from just "labor". Europe in general is ahead of the US insofar as an aging population. Successful economies all have declining birth rates, worldwide.
But somebody's gotta do the work.
The US, Canada and Australia are all geared up for assimilation of immigrants; it's built into both the legal structure and the cultures. You can, for instance, emigrate from Algeria to the US, follow the rules to become a citizen and proclaim yourself an American and be accepted as such. And Algerian, already a French citizen, can move to Paris, but he's not accepted as "French". The national attitude is that you're only French if your long-ago ancestors were French. It's a societal thing. Snobbism, if you will. Parisians are the worst; I've seen them refuse to understand the French spoken by somebody from down in Provençe. So, a permanent condition of "otherness".
Add to this the problems inherent in a culture with Islam as its religion; all you have to do is look at the economies of the mideast, absent oil.
Then add it the structure of the French style of economy with the job-protection structures and vacations, etc. Factor in, then, the unemployment rates among the various age groups and ethnic groups.
Even if I'm wrong on any one point, above, it is still a fact that there is a multiplicity of factors leading to or causing the current riotous events. No one factor can be looked upon as "The" problem.
Art
But somebody's gotta do the work.
The US, Canada and Australia are all geared up for assimilation of immigrants; it's built into both the legal structure and the cultures. You can, for instance, emigrate from Algeria to the US, follow the rules to become a citizen and proclaim yourself an American and be accepted as such. And Algerian, already a French citizen, can move to Paris, but he's not accepted as "French". The national attitude is that you're only French if your long-ago ancestors were French. It's a societal thing. Snobbism, if you will. Parisians are the worst; I've seen them refuse to understand the French spoken by somebody from down in Provençe. So, a permanent condition of "otherness".
Add to this the problems inherent in a culture with Islam as its religion; all you have to do is look at the economies of the mideast, absent oil.
Then add it the structure of the French style of economy with the job-protection structures and vacations, etc. Factor in, then, the unemployment rates among the various age groups and ethnic groups.
Even if I'm wrong on any one point, above, it is still a fact that there is a multiplicity of factors leading to or causing the current riotous events. No one factor can be looked upon as "The" problem.
Art
jeanfor
Member
Art Eatman said:
In the US you are viewed as a US citizen but not as an American!!!! Remember Bruce Lee....
I am french, came in 1985, became a US citizen... A lady with her husband on the bus asked what part of France I was coming from and how long I was staying....I responded "...well the US is my country". She looked at me very confused and apologized....
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
I would apologize too if I had made a rude assumption.jeanfor said:
I suspect that she was genuinely curious about your ancestral roots. I'd be interested myself. Her only mistake was not assuming that you were American.
But think about this: Once you told her that you though of yourself as American, she accepted it without question. She reacted with embarassment, not doubt or disagreement.
"American" is a state of mind. It isn't a matter of blood, genetics, or ancestry. If you can say "I am an American" honestly, then you're as American as any of us are.
I don't think this holds true for ancestral Algerians living in France.
For one, NO American citizen should have to have more then one job to afford the basic needs of life. And what good would an education do if employers choose to hire people from Turd world countrys at wages that an American will starve on.
You are paying $15 a Big Mac, you're just not paying it to McDonalds.
What do you expect when not only you can get more on welfare then working, but any job you find doesn't even pay enough to make ends meet?
-Bill
No sir, that is an entitlement mentality. Read the constitution, where does it say you have a right to employment.
Also, the basic needs in life do not include children, a car, a microwave, and a TV. The so called "poor" in this country are actually kings by the world's standards.
Poverty, in the US, is a decision a person makes. With the opportunity in this country, if you are willing to educate yourself and apply yourself, you will earn a job that will provide the basic needs and a little extra. Those who can not afford these things do so on their own accord.
Each man's position in life is an indicator of the decisions they have made during their lives. Those who argue that position are afraid to look in the mirror and evaluate those decisions.
Crosshair
Member
Plenty of people I know make a living working at Wal-Mart. Many have to take a second job, several are just working until they can get a better job (Many do.). I have done well at Wal-Mart, getting great reviews and good raises. For going to school ful time, it is a great job. Wal-Mart actualy pay's better than many other retail places where I live.
redneck2
Member
That's the problem. It's easier and just as profitable to not work as to work. When I was a kid, going on welfare was a disgrace. Now it's a way of life for some.
You'd never make a farmer. When I grew up on the dairy farm we worked maybe 80 hours a week. It was just a way of life. Somehow we've gotten the idea that 40 hour weeks are a God-given right.
I worked 2-3 jobs, odd jobs. Even after I had a Degree in Mechanical Engineering I raked leaves, moved lawns to make extra $$.
I knew a woman in Gary IN that moved here from Vietnam. Her and husband took crap jobs washing dishes in a restaurant. Moved into a crap apartment in Gary (which was a big step up from Vietnam)
Both worked 80 hours a week . Walked to work. Ate leftovers from the restaurant. Saved their money and bought the apartment building they lived in (9 unit). Saved and paid it off in less than 18 months, so all the the rents went to another apartment building they bought. Did repairs themselves.
In 7 years she was wearing fur coats, driving a 560 Mercedes, and owned a number of properties. If you think this is some fairy tale, think again. Nasty little woman but very successful. They did this in an area with "no jobs"
If you're too lazy to work you deserve to starve. Take care of the people that can't work. Let the others starve. Betcha after a day or two of not eating they'd find a job
Immigrants are 7 times more likely to become a millionaire than people born in the US. Wonder why
CTMB590A1
Member
Free Health Care for Immigrants.....
If we don't have an immigration problem?......then why are so many border hospitals in serious financial trouble?.....
On a blistering day in May, US Border Patrol agents in southern California's Imperial County found a man collapsed in the desert. The 39-year-old had successfully sneaked across the border from Mexico, only to succumb to heat stroke. The agents called an ambulance to take him to nearby El Centro Regional Medical Center, where he spent two days in intensive care and several more in recuperation. The agents didn't come back for him, so he left with relatives bound for Los Angeles -- leaving the hospital with his unpaid bill for $26,890.
No one at El Centro Regional was surprised. The public hospital is losing more than $1 million a year treating undocumented immigrants, many of whom were injured trying to cross the border -- people who've broken bones jumping from the 20-foot border fence in Calexico, nearly drowned trying to swim the All-American Canal, or become dehydrated in the Imperial Valley desert.
The full article is here:
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/06/border_hospitals.html
How many on this forum get free health care?
If we don't have an immigration problem?......then why are so many border hospitals in serious financial trouble?.....
On a blistering day in May, US Border Patrol agents in southern California's Imperial County found a man collapsed in the desert. The 39-year-old had successfully sneaked across the border from Mexico, only to succumb to heat stroke. The agents called an ambulance to take him to nearby El Centro Regional Medical Center, where he spent two days in intensive care and several more in recuperation. The agents didn't come back for him, so he left with relatives bound for Los Angeles -- leaving the hospital with his unpaid bill for $26,890.
No one at El Centro Regional was surprised. The public hospital is losing more than $1 million a year treating undocumented immigrants, many of whom were injured trying to cross the border -- people who've broken bones jumping from the 20-foot border fence in Calexico, nearly drowned trying to swim the All-American Canal, or become dehydrated in the Imperial Valley desert.
The full article is here:
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2000/06/border_hospitals.html
How many on this forum get free health care?
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
The problem isn't immigrants who need services. The problem is that people are no longer expected to pay their own way.
It doesn't matter where you're from. If you revceive services from a hospital (or anywhere else) YOU AND YOU ALONE are the one who needs to pay for them. It doesn't matter if you're a poor illegal Mexican immigrant, or a poor American citizen, or a rich American citizen. YOU have to pay for what you receive.
The problem is freeloading, not imigration. If we fix the freeloading problem, the so called "immigration problem" will vanish.
It doesn't matter where you're from. If you revceive services from a hospital (or anywhere else) YOU AND YOU ALONE are the one who needs to pay for them. It doesn't matter if you're a poor illegal Mexican immigrant, or a poor American citizen, or a rich American citizen. YOU have to pay for what you receive.
The problem is freeloading, not imigration. If we fix the freeloading problem, the so called "immigration problem" will vanish.
- Status