Is ignorance Bliss when it comes to complex firearms issues

Status
Not open for further replies.

gym

member
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
5,901
When we speak of penetration and expansion, differences, and thousandths of an inch tolerances, Polygonal rifling , and SRT vs DAK triggers that were changed on weapons, is it really just so much technical statistics that have very little to do with the actual cause of death that a weapon inflicts. Were most people better off just sticking with a popular simple firearm that has worked millions of times in the past, and forgoing the analytical references and differences regarding different types of metal powder and countless other intricacies that seem to go into many discussions about what gun is best for one thing or another that have become so ingrained in any conversation about any gun , that we may just be allowing it to become more involved than it needs to be?
When we see something disprove what we were striving to reach, with no particular cause other than it just did, does that entertain the aspect that "luck" plays a great part in weather one survives a gun battle, or not. As prepared as you can be and having the best and newest equipment, you can't seem to have enough luck along.
I am not trying to dissuade healthy conversation at all, only sometimes when one steps back from what one is seeing, it appears different than if you get too engrained in the intricacies of every dynamic that can possibly come into play. I tend to think out forefathers thought less about many of these difficult to pronounce words and more about the means to an end.
Much like when a gun manufacturer comes out with 10 guns that are basically the same other than one is .2 inches longer than the previous one which was ..3 inches longer than the 2 before that one which held 5 rounds then 6, then 7, but had extended magazines which made them the same.
Maybe it's just been a long week.
Why don't fifteen hundred dollar guns have night sights, standard, and only 1 magazine instead or 2 or 3. Why do we put up with some of these things. Perhaps we need a user organization set up to reflect our needs and wishes to manufacturers. Maybe if enough of us voiced our dis satisfaction with 500 round break ins, and guns that don't shoot out of the box, we would get a better product for our hard earned dollar.
What nerve some have to give us 1 magazine for a thousand dollars, then charge $50 dollars for a second. With a one year warrantee on a gun that cost as much as many or our first cars.
Yet we silently put up with it while complaining to each other.
While watching a utube video last night about 1911's entitled 1911's suck, "part 2". with everyone's favorite nut case, "Yeager".
Who had a gunsmith from Wilson Combat, and a 3300 dollar starting price 1911, "and up", 1911, admitting that the guns were really not reliable, and he had a Glock, I started to get a bit aggravated.
The nerve of a company, "I am sure Bill Wilson" didn't approve of the video, nor saw it, Or it would likely be removed, to say that an entire model of guns is unreliable, while making sure to throw in that John Browning was a true Genius, in the same sentence, "I guess to not totally alienate everyone", several times, is hard to swallow. Then there was one where another "expert" swore that in the history of his training program, not one client ever made it through the 2 day, course without his or her 1911 failing and needing to be replaced with another weapon. I found to be total bullcrap. If indeed true it is astonishing that they are still using them. They blamed it on stacking tolerances. "for those who understand the term. It just means sometimes the parts don't work properly in some guns, and do in others. I find that the more of this stuff that these guys put online the more it discredits them and whatever point they were trying to make, "if there was one". Everyone became an authority on guns in the past few years, most have been shooting a year or two, and have 3 black belts in doubletalk.
TV has made it worse, now everyone is watching what gun they use in every TV show, Banshee: I want 6 Springfield's with Ceramic cans, said the female lead,"who ever says that?, and then you see a Beretta 92, 2 Sigs, 26 's and a Glock 17. It's becoming really dumb. Did you ever think of a shootout with 7 men with AK's in fully automatic, vs. 2 people with handguns, at 30 feet, last for over a 2 minute period, with the good guy, "the one with the handgun" winning?
We know it's fantasy, but entirely too much mis-information influencing the everyday Joe. Methinks it does contribute to boosting the popularity of the hobby making people believe these weapons have far more capability's no matter how unrealistic it may be.
Just venting long week, happy shooting.
Gun show tomorrow in FT. Pierce FL, I will be looking for one of those AK eaters.
 
The discussion itself is a type of ignorance. Hard to blame Hollywood when most of what we talk about here is just idle chatter, with little or no bearing on reality...

The "real" issues we face are: get gun - train with gun - use gun.

Yet the forum consists mostly of:
"Are AR15s reliable"
"9mm Vs. 45"
"What gun for bear"
"Should I sell gun X and buy gun Y"
"Can I shoot animal A with bullet B"
"How can I force my family to like guns"

Fruitless Sisyphus'ian endevors.

The appropriate healthy responce is to take everything read on an internet gun forum with several grains of salt, and admit to yourself that it is mostly entertainment and hobby.
 
I hear you, especially about paying a small fortune for a gun only to have to purchase night sites, or an extra mag, at an additional cost. Mags probably cost all of a few dollars to make, make two for #%$&@ sake and give me the second one with my purchase. I'll feel good about it and probably buy from the company again. What are they out? $3 maybe?

As far as one gun being .003" longer or shorter than the next, as long as people continue buying the hype and buying this stuff, corporations will continue to market it.

I feel your pain. Now, go get one of your guns, .001" longer than it's mate, take it to the range and shoot the snot out of it. You'll feel better and your gun will love you for it, since you're showing it some affection.

Stay well.....
 
Cars are no different.

Do you need a 3/4 ton dually pickup just to drive to work in? Park it, sits all day, drive home, done. Maybe a couple sacks of fertilizer on the weekend for the lawn.

It's not the technical improvements that make one vs another "better." They can. It's the locker room measuring contest that creates it, tho. It's NOT about the gun, or the truck, or bike, or arm candy wife. It's about who is The Man, top dog, alpha male, Big Kahuna.

You have a Rolex and Joe over in that cubicle doesn't. Buahahahaha, "I'm Better Than You!!!!" gloats your ego.

Absolutely the #1 biggest influence on the internet that starts all the flame wars and gets threads shut down. And those who don't agree are clueless untermensch who need to turn in their obviously unneeded Man Cards and learn knitting.

Of course, in real life, I had a history teacher in high school who stood 6'5", kept in great shape, was faithfully married, and knitted in class. Wore his own sweaters in the winter, too. Did good work. We affectionately called him Lurch - but never to his face. Nice guy.

It's said Samurai were encouraged to choose a noncombative hobby, like, bonsai. If you are all about being one dimensional and can't ever let down your guard protecting your macho self image, then that's a problem, not something to strive for.

Get that in the front door of the store every day. Don't know much about cars, but very sensitive about simply asking questions and finding out things. Mr. "Never let your guard down" usually leaves with a lot less help because of it. If they own a motorcycle, it goes double. Extreme stubborness isn't a virtue when someone has no idea what engineer's are truly capable of.

"There's a place for a relay there, and by God, I'm putting one it to fix the problem." "I can sell you the relay, yes, but that location isn't identified as even being the circuit you have a problem with. I can't guarantee it will fix your problem."

I can't guarantee you will find happiness and elevated status toting a .300BO SBR with suppressor, either. But, if you need one as the best tool shooting hogs in Texas, go for it. If a Rolex Submariner is your pick of day to use for SCUBA, fine. But don't get too bent out of shape if someone suggests that you could buy a decent set of tanks and gear, a wrist timer, and plane tickets to Bermuda for the money spend on the Rolex.

Same for gun forums. Look at the sig lines - one long list of "I'm better than you." Car forums get even more in-your-face, a detailed list of parts and accessories that may or may not actually work together. But, they sure are expensive and therefore, the owner must have higher social status because of it.

The tech really doesn't matter beyond the 85 percentile. Getting most of it right and having it cooperate will do the job for most of us. Often the little stuff won't make a hair's worth of difference, a 1" smaller group at 500m isn't going to do much if the gun was 2MOA to begin with. That means all the money spent to do that won't return on the dollar, it's a very questionable expense. Like, throttle body spacers, there's a lot of hype and marketing, the public just want's the sticker under the hood.

I've got one and you don't, therefore, I'm better than you. The tech is just a measuring stick.
 
When we speak of penetration and expansion, differences, and thousandths of an inch tolerances, Polygonal rifling , and SRT vs DAK triggers that were changed on weapons, is it really just so much technical statistics that have very little to do with the actual cause of death that a weapon inflicts.

Apparently polygonal rifling is the reason why I was able to have a pistol made in 1985 that came with two 12 round mags and a holster shipped directly to myself for $200, so it matters in that regard :p

If you're going to put it that way though, I'm no expert on terminal ballistics but I'd think shot placement, caliber, and bullet composition have the most to do with "actual cause of death that a weapon inflicts". Of course, those last two put us right back in the type of discussion that you're venting about.
 
People learn about the law of diminishing returns in different ways.

Some spend exorbitant amounts of money on "X" because it's "better" than "Y".

When "X" and "Y" are almost the same product.

Brand consumerism, aggressive marketing, professional testimony are all things that make people buy stuff.

Ultimately Tirod summed it up well. In America particularly, a man is not judged by his character but by his possesions. Because, God forbid, someone breaks into your home that hi-point c9 won't do it's job and that's why you need a Nighthawk Custom.
 
I wouldn't say ignorance is bliss as much as we put way too much emphasis on the numbers. The bottom line is excluding ridiculously under powered cartridges, whatever you choose will probably be sufficient if you ever wind up in a real life self defense situation.
 
I know where you're speaking from. I too I'm guilty of it to some extent. When I first started out I over researched everything. The whole 9 vs. 40 vs. 10 vs. 45 stopping power thing. I won't even get into SA vs TDA vs DAO that I agonized over.

In the end I settled on a 10mm S&W. It was the right piece for the right price and fit my hand well.
 
If brevity truly is the wit of soul, then I think we are all missing the point on this forum!

More seriously though I would have to say it's just the internet. People gather with common interests and everybody wants their opinion heard.

One of the reasons I come here is for the technicality aspect. I have plenty of people to talk guns with but being more mechanically minded I sometimes have a hard time keeping my friends interested in a conversation about ballistics, manufacturing techniques, or whatever. Thankfully there is the high road!

As far as the Yeager thing. Who cares. If you like your 1911, keep it. Most commentators on the Internets get under my skin too but you just have to ignore em.
 
Read about gun, try the gun, buy the gun, read about another gun, try the gun, buy another gun. In between those acts ya gotta try all the loads for each gun.

Now I have launchers made from steel, wood, and plastics from .22s and .380s to a recently acquired 45/70. Someday I gotta learn to insert - sell a gun.
 
"Why don't fifteen hundred dollar guns have night sights"

Some do. Isn't it great having a choice?

Why don't guns come with 2 mags? Because Mec-Gar can't make mags fast enough given the unprecedented gun sales of the past few years. Simple economics.

Don't tell me, you're the guy who sits around the wood stove and complains because people are talking about stuff and telling tales.
 
My thoughts are indeed separated, it's a different style of writing. More a story than a post, but truth be said there is much that is lacking with some of the junk being passed of as quality guns now. When company's release firearms that aren't even finished, and require recalls 2 years down the road. There is a problem, a night sight costs retail $35 dollars, do we really need to pay extra on a thousand dollar gun for a magazine and a set of sights.
Did M&P really take 2-3 years to be able to produce magazines for their most popular gun? never had a wood stove, although it might be fun to throw some of the garbage passing as guns in. At least Springfield gave people a free magazine for the inconvenience. Many of these company's won't admit culpability because the expense will bankrupt them. Dude don't call me Dude.
 
mr.trooper said:
Yet the forum consists mostly of:
"Are AR15s reliable"
"9mm Vs. 45"
"What gun for bear"
"Should I sell gun X and buy gun Y"
"Can I shoot animal A with bullet B"
"How can I force my family to like guns"

Hey, you forgot open carry vs concealed. We do that probably once a week...
 
If brevity truly is the wit of soul, then I think we are all missing the point on this forum!

More seriously though I would have to say it's just the internet. People gather with common interests and everybody wants their opinion heard.

One of the reasons I come here is for the technicality aspect. I have plenty of people to talk guns with but being more mechanically minded I sometimes have a hard time keeping my friends interested in a conversation about ballistics, manufacturing techniques, or whatever. Thankfully there is the high road!

As far as the Yeager thing. Who cares. If you like your 1911, keep it. Most commentators on the Internets get under my skin too but you just have to ignore em.

Brevity is the soul of wit. :D

I agree that coming to THR is an easy source of good technical information as long as you subject it to scrutiny. None of us is as smart as all of us. Even if bogus information is posted, someone else will point it out or you will discover it yourself when cross checking with other sources. There are times someone will post something I never even imagined existed. THR is a great resource.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top