reddheadnla1974
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Is it possible to shoot shot out of a kentucky pistol with a rifled barrell? Can it be done?
Is it possible?
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scrat
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iTS POSSIBLE. JUST NOT GOOD. I have heard of a method though. Powder, over powder wad. Then take a cloth and cup it in the barrel and pour the shot in the cloth. Like a patch. then ram it down. then place a over shot wad on top. Theory is when you shoot it the cloth acts as a cushion until it exits the barrel where the shot spreads.
reddheadnla1974
Member
I watched a show on PBS awhile back where they were trying to figure out how a skeleton had been shot from behind.This was with a rifle. they took a rifle and put powder in it and then took a round ball and broke it up and put it in the barrell and then put a round ball and patch on top of that and then fired. I am not sure where the patches went but it was really neat,
Yes, it's possible. The effective range is about 10, maybe even 15 feet. That's feet, not yards.
Shooting shot from a rifled barrel of any kind is ineffective. The rifling will cause the shot column to rotate (even if enclosed in a cloth bag) and it will continue to rotate after leaving the bore. The rotating motion will spread the shot out in an ever expanding doughnut shape, and after about 10-15 feet it's just a bunch of bb's flying around.
Shooting shot from a rifled barrel of any kind is ineffective. The rifling will cause the shot column to rotate (even if enclosed in a cloth bag) and it will continue to rotate after leaving the bore. The rotating motion will spread the shot out in an ever expanding doughnut shape, and after about 10-15 feet it's just a bunch of bb's flying around.
Pulp
Member
Many years ago a friend and I went out to shoot our T/C Hawkens. When we arrived at the area there were a bunch of dove flying around. It was dove season. My friend remarked he wished we'd brought shotguns. So my little brain went to thinkin', and we loaded powder in our Hawkens, wadded up some paper towels, cut open a 12 gauge shell and split the shot 'twixt us, then some more paper towel wadding.
He killed the first dove that flew by after we were loaded. I never killed one, but did knock feathers off several times.
So yes, it's possible, and the range might be more than you think.
He killed the first dove that flew by after we were loaded. I never killed one, but did knock feathers off several times.
So yes, it's possible, and the range might be more than you think.
Pulp
Member
Maybe the difference in barrel length was the reason we got better patterns. I'd of thought the pistol would pattern at least as good as our rifles since the shot would have less time in the barrel to develop spin. Oh well, I've been wrong before.
BTW, I lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan many years ago, left when I was 9. Lot's of fond memories of playin' in the snow. Probably wouldn't be as much fun now, 50 years later.
BTW, I lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan many years ago, left when I was 9. Lot's of fond memories of playin' in the snow. Probably wouldn't be as much fun now, 50 years later.
We used to build forts, go sledding and tobogganing, make snow angels, snowmen and snowballs. 50 years later we use shovels, snow blowers, roof rakes and snowmobiles. Never have developed a liking for ice fishing, can no longer go skiing. Yep. It was more fun then.
madcratebuilder
Member
You can increase the effective range by making a paper shot cup. Similar to making a paper powder charge.
reddheadnla1974
Member
How would you do the paper shot cup, that sounds interesting.
arcticap
Member
You would need to make a shot tube out of printer paper that will just fit inside the bore. It would resemble a penny or dime coin roll.
Start with a dowel that's just under bore size and wrap an appropriate length of printer paper around it and then glue the edge to seal it.
Because you have a rifled barrel with sharp rifling, I don't know if one wrap of paper will be enough or if 2 will be too thick. You may need to experiment with how many wraps to use so the paper won't easily tear before it exits the barrel. If it's way too thick it may not break apart before it hits the target. I suspect that the sharp rifling would break it apart on the way out though.
After the edge is glued, slide a small portion of the tube off the dowel, crimp the bottom and glue it. The shot tube is now mostly formed and can be removed from the dowel.
Normally at this point a wool wad wad [or shot wad] would be inserted into the bottom of the paper tube. But I suggest skipping this step for now to allow the finished tube to more easily fit into the bore.
Now add the desired amount of hard shot into the tube and then fold and glue the top.
The result is a basic paper shotshell.
The normal ratio of powder to shot is 1/1.
But reducing the powder charge should help to improve the shot pattern.
Before loading the completed shot tube, be sure to place 1 or 2 Wonder Wads over the powder to cushion and protect the bottom of the shot tube when it's fired. By leaving the wonder wads out of the shot tube, less spin should be imparted to the tube and the shot itself.
Then load one more Wonder Wad over the shot tube as an overshot card to keep the shot tube secured in the breech so it won't creep forward before firing it off.
If someone was really serious about experimenting, they might consider loading buffered shot into the paper shotshell.
Cornmeal muffin mix [recommended by Caywood], corn meal or Cream of Wheat would be mixed with the shot to keep each pellet separated so it will disperse more evenly after it's fired. The buffered shot mixture would simply replace loading plain shot.
Buffered shot may or may not provide any improvement in the pattern, but then again it may provide the best and only chance for obtaining any kind of usable shot pattern from a rifled barrel.
You asked for it!
Start with a dowel that's just under bore size and wrap an appropriate length of printer paper around it and then glue the edge to seal it.
Because you have a rifled barrel with sharp rifling, I don't know if one wrap of paper will be enough or if 2 will be too thick. You may need to experiment with how many wraps to use so the paper won't easily tear before it exits the barrel. If it's way too thick it may not break apart before it hits the target. I suspect that the sharp rifling would break it apart on the way out though.
After the edge is glued, slide a small portion of the tube off the dowel, crimp the bottom and glue it. The shot tube is now mostly formed and can be removed from the dowel.
Normally at this point a wool wad wad [or shot wad] would be inserted into the bottom of the paper tube. But I suggest skipping this step for now to allow the finished tube to more easily fit into the bore.
Now add the desired amount of hard shot into the tube and then fold and glue the top.
The result is a basic paper shotshell.
The normal ratio of powder to shot is 1/1.
But reducing the powder charge should help to improve the shot pattern.
Before loading the completed shot tube, be sure to place 1 or 2 Wonder Wads over the powder to cushion and protect the bottom of the shot tube when it's fired. By leaving the wonder wads out of the shot tube, less spin should be imparted to the tube and the shot itself.
Then load one more Wonder Wad over the shot tube as an overshot card to keep the shot tube secured in the breech so it won't creep forward before firing it off.
If someone was really serious about experimenting, they might consider loading buffered shot into the paper shotshell.
Cornmeal muffin mix [recommended by Caywood], corn meal or Cream of Wheat would be mixed with the shot to keep each pellet separated so it will disperse more evenly after it's fired. The buffered shot mixture would simply replace loading plain shot.
Buffered shot may or may not provide any improvement in the pattern, but then again it may provide the best and only chance for obtaining any kind of usable shot pattern from a rifled barrel.
You asked for it!
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reddheadnla1974
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I sure did and thank you very very much, all of you for rour help.
reddheadnla1974
Member
What do you recommend for a powder charge for the paper shot shell? Thanks
Macmac
Member
How does a shot skeleton show a gun bore was shot out in the first place?
And even back in the day it usually took more than one life times use to shoot out a bore...
And even back in the day it usually took more than one life times use to shoot out a bore...
madcratebuilder
Member
Good idea, I need to try that. If it does not work out at least I have something for breakfast.
arcticap
Member
It depends on the amount of shot, but I would start at about 27 grains of powder and then step up in 5 grain increments.
Here are a few equal volume loads:
oz. shot-----Dr. powder-------Grains
3/4-------------2--------------55
7/8-------------2 1/4----------62
1---------------2 1/2----------68
If the paper shotshell isn't opened up by the time it hits the target, then try punching 2 or 3 tiny slits into the upper side of the shell just before pushing it in.
Or putting some lube around it may also weaken the paper enough to help it open up.
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Bartkowski
Member
This isn't true. It will rotate in the bore, but as soon as the shot leaves the bore it will stop spinning. The rotation in the bore however will cause the shot to spread out very rapidly; but it won't spin around in circles after leaving the bore.
WilliamFeldmann
Member
Say what?
Why would the shot all of a sudden stop spinning?
My Taurus Judge (Gasp! cartridge gun) shoots a perfect doughnut of shot that expands with range. The shot in the plastic cup is not individually spinning (like the single round ball load), but the cup and wad are, and as such, each individual shot piece is spinning in relation to a fixed point (say the midline of the bore). When the load exits the barrel the cup stops short and the shot continues its spin and arcs outward, causing the ring or doughnut.
What you just said defys the laws of physics. Inertia is inertia, centifical force is centrifical force. It can't just stop, there would need to be energy expended to do that.
Why would the shot all of a sudden stop spinning?
My Taurus Judge (Gasp! cartridge gun) shoots a perfect doughnut of shot that expands with range. The shot in the plastic cup is not individually spinning (like the single round ball load), but the cup and wad are, and as such, each individual shot piece is spinning in relation to a fixed point (say the midline of the bore). When the load exits the barrel the cup stops short and the shot continues its spin and arcs outward, causing the ring or doughnut.
What you just said defys the laws of physics. Inertia is inertia, centifical force is centrifical force. It can't just stop, there would need to be energy expended to do that.
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arcticap
Member
It's just an experiment.
If the paper shotshell is smaller diameter and a little looser, then it may not grab the rifling and rotate as much as if it did.
Also, being protected by the paper wad, the shot isn't in direct contact with the rifling and may not be diverted by the lands and grooves as much.
Shotshell wads rotate slightly when fired from smoothbores too.
The experiment is to try to slow down the rotation if possible, and the paper shot shell may help to delay the dispersal of the shot load a little bit.
If the paper shotshell is smaller diameter and a little looser, then it may not grab the rifling and rotate as much as if it did.
Also, being protected by the paper wad, the shot isn't in direct contact with the rifling and may not be diverted by the lands and grooves as much.
Shotshell wads rotate slightly when fired from smoothbores too.
The experiment is to try to slow down the rotation if possible, and the paper shot shell may help to delay the dispersal of the shot load a little bit.
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Dave A
Member
What stops the shot column from rotating? Instead of thinking of the shot column as a whole consider instead an individual piece of shot. A rough analogy would be a very undersized bullet fired down a rifle barrel. The trajectory of the bullet will be determined by its' last point of contact with the barrel. From that point on the only forces acting on the bullet will be atmospheric drag and gravity and the bullet will follow a ballistic path to earth. There is nothing to continue to push the bullet (shot) once it exits the muzzle.
Bartkowski
Member
While the shot is in the bore, the bore applys a force on the shot column. This force keeps it from going off in a tangential path to the circlular one it is taking in the bore. As soon as the shot leaves the bore there is no centripetal force acting on it. Therefore, the shot will not rotate around a center point. It will be moving outwards away from the center in a direction tangential to the bore where the individual pieces were located.
Of course it is still moving forward too. The speed at which the shot moves forward is much greater than the speed that it goes off away from the bore. So the shot will still have some pattern. But in no way does the shot spin around a center point.
If you are still interested and want to know more, read up on centripetal forces. Then read about rotating masses and what happens when a centripetal force is removed.
It is not that something is stopping its rotation around a center point, it's just that there is just no centripetal force to make the shot continue to rotate.
Think of a ball on a string. Now, you start to spin it above your head and suddenly the string breaks. Does the ball spin around your head (the center point in this instance) after the string breaks? No it goes off in a direction tangent to the circular path it was previously taking. That is because the string applied a centripetal force on the ball.
Of course it is still moving forward too. The speed at which the shot moves forward is much greater than the speed that it goes off away from the bore. So the shot will still have some pattern. But in no way does the shot spin around a center point.
If you are still interested and want to know more, read up on centripetal forces. Then read about rotating masses and what happens when a centripetal force is removed.
It is not that something is stopping its rotation around a center point, it's just that there is just no centripetal force to make the shot continue to rotate.
Think of a ball on a string. Now, you start to spin it above your head and suddenly the string breaks. Does the ball spin around your head (the center point in this instance) after the string breaks? No it goes off in a direction tangent to the circular path it was previously taking. That is because the string applied a centripetal force on the ball.
Ok. Any given individual shot pellet is following a ballistic path when it leaves the barrel. No argument there. However, you fail to understand what that ballistic path is.
While in the bore each and every pellet's motion is determined by the shot column as a whole. In the rifled barrel the motion of each particle is described as a helix; that is, it's rotating about an axis aligned in the direction of motion. The shape of the helix is determined by the bore.
When the shot column exits the barrel the motion is still in the shape of a helix; there is no force outside the barrel to change that. The lack of a barrel wall restricting the helix to a cylindrical shape allows the helix to expand in diameter, but the rotation of the column still exists. And every pellet in the column continues to follow the path it had with respect to the column itself.
Your analogy about an undersized bullet is not applicable. If a shot pellet were alone in the barrel it would act as you have stated, but the fact is that the motion of the individual pellets is determined by their neighbors in the shot column, and the column's motion is determined by the barrel walls.
It's very easy to test this theory. Just go shoot some bird shot at a piece of cardboard 6 or 8 feet away. Then describe the shot pattern.
While in the bore each and every pellet's motion is determined by the shot column as a whole. In the rifled barrel the motion of each particle is described as a helix; that is, it's rotating about an axis aligned in the direction of motion. The shape of the helix is determined by the bore.
When the shot column exits the barrel the motion is still in the shape of a helix; there is no force outside the barrel to change that. The lack of a barrel wall restricting the helix to a cylindrical shape allows the helix to expand in diameter, but the rotation of the column still exists. And every pellet in the column continues to follow the path it had with respect to the column itself.
Your analogy about an undersized bullet is not applicable. If a shot pellet were alone in the barrel it would act as you have stated, but the fact is that the motion of the individual pellets is determined by their neighbors in the shot column, and the column's motion is determined by the barrel walls.
It's very easy to test this theory. Just go shoot some bird shot at a piece of cardboard 6 or 8 feet away. Then describe the shot pattern.
Bartkowski
Member
mykeal, again that is incorrect.
That is exactly it, there is NO force acting on the shot. You need a centripetal force to keep something rotating around a fixed point. When there is no net external force acting on an object, that object will not accelerate. Acceleration includes changing direction. If something moves in a circle it is constantly changing direction, therefore there has to be a force making change direction. This is what centripetal forces do. While in the bore the shot column acts like a solid mass, but as soon as it leaves the bore each piece of shot acts independent from the other pieces.
It is the lack of a force that makes the shot stop spinning around. There is no rigid connection between the pieces of shot and the center of the shot column; nor is there any force acting on the shot from the outside of the shot column(like the bore did).
Please read a basic summary of centripetal forces before we continue this argument.
That is exactly it, there is NO force acting on the shot. You need a centripetal force to keep something rotating around a fixed point. When there is no net external force acting on an object, that object will not accelerate. Acceleration includes changing direction. If something moves in a circle it is constantly changing direction, therefore there has to be a force making change direction. This is what centripetal forces do. While in the bore the shot column acts like a solid mass, but as soon as it leaves the bore each piece of shot acts independent from the other pieces.
It is the lack of a force that makes the shot stop spinning around. There is no rigid connection between the pieces of shot and the center of the shot column; nor is there any force acting on the shot from the outside of the shot column(like the bore did).
Please read a basic summary of centripetal forces before we continue this argument.
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