Is point shooting practical?

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they can

well, some can

not every one has the innate ability-reflexes and skill backed by the training to be effective in a actual fight situation.
much the way not every one who drives a car can race at Indy.

if you are one of those who thinks he can, than train to the best of your abilities.

this is a commen post--try 'search' for more of what thr members think.
 
guy's been doin it since he was 10. thats 55 years. ill let you know when Im 79 how good my shooting is. Im sure it will be sharp
 
If you are talking Fairbains style point shooting (where you have a visual reference of where the gun is pointing relative to the target)--you can get center of mass hits at least to cross the room distances
 
When I was a kid, I used to shoot my daisy bb gun right handed. I was pretty good at point and shoot. Lizards running were no match. The reason I never aimed was that my right eye is very weak. With practice, I adapted to the point where I was better than most who took time to aim.

Shooting this way was also what prompted my parents to take me to the optometrist.
 
Yes, it is practical. Just like getting into a good relaxed prone with a natural point of aim & taking a nice deep breath, letting it out sowly while looking through a 24x scope & smoothly pressing the trigger to the rear.

They're just on different sides of the scale. The point shooting will work better if you have some sort of physical index.
 
if your shooting at 15 feet or less, you can hit center mass every time with no problems, probably on your first try.

Keep in mind, you wont be printing "groups", you will be printing what look like shotgun pattern. But your shots will all be on the target.

This is why ERGONOMICS are so important. The better the gun fits you, the closer the bore will be to your line of sight. A gun that fits you will produce a smaller pattern when point shooting than one that doesn't.
 
If you want to learn how to point shoot like anything else you need to start out slow. I think it's a very practical skill useful for 10 yards or less and some can stretch this to 15 yards. Jeff Cooper had no use for point shooting and believed in "flash sight picture". Jim Cirillo was an advocate of point shooting and taught methods like "gun silhouette" (almost a flash sight picture) and "nose point". Get one of his books which describe these techniques.

Cooper and Cirillo are both right by the way. You need to take the best both have to offer in technique.
 
I think it's absolutely practical AND a crucial skill for CHL: YMMV.

That may not be the most popular view, but my point shooting has improved dramatically once I really started practicing, especially at multiple targets within close range.

I've not done a comparison of times vs aimed and point shooting, but I can tell I'm getting rounds off more quickly and they are on target.

Thanks,
DFW1911
 
I think it is skill that is good to have. It keeps the gun closer to the body which keeps it further from the BG. And there are times when its impractical to walk around with a two handed grip and arms fully extended. But, for accuracy, it's hard to beat looking down the sights.

I learned to do it by shooting into water. When I did the shooting portion for my CCP in Arkansas, out instructor had us do some shooting this way. His thinking was that you may not have time or the ability to set yourself in a proper shooting stance. I had been doing this for years shooting sticks or anything else that would float in a pond. So while most people at the range were doing this for the first time and shooting between 12 and 30 inch groups, I was shooting about a 5 inch groups.

Shooting into water always worked well for me because I could see where each bullet hit and make adjustments. I suppose shooting into dry dirt or sand would work well too. If you do any shooting into water, don't forget that bullets will skip on water even at some suprisingly steep angles. So know what is beyond your target.
 
Point Shooting

It is practical... especially at close ranges, and with multiple moving targets. The trick is learning to "see" properly. Time, and practice makes is easier.
 
Is "shooting from the hip" a subset of point shooting or are they entirely distinct concepts?
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That depends on who you ask.. it's one of the reasons that I prefer "intuitive shooting"... ie- Shooting based on the way you would do it in the absence of instruction/training, with refinements for efficient deviation control and maximum speed depending on the amount of precision you need. In CFS, we don't shoot at positions other than Extended in the line of sight unless it is a retention/contact issue.
... and of course, we use sights whenever the need for precision dictates, but we teach that as a secondary skill. We have found (and several adopting training academies/groups have shown) that new shooters learn much faster and better with this model.
-RJP
 
Hip no, point yes, if you can point at something, you can probablly hit it, within 30 ft
 
His thinking was that you may not have time or the ability to set yourself in a proper shooting stance.
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This is a thought-provoking point and one I've considered many times. Ideally the target(s) would like up as we've been practicing and we could assume the stance we like best, etc. How likely is that? Not too likely, in my opinion.

It reminds me of a phrase I "learned" when I studied Aiki-Jitsu. We were doing randori and I was told by one of the newer guys that "you aren't attacking me the right way" :scrutiny:

He eventually turned into a pretty good player, but I'll never forget that interaction.
 
Let's say you are driving solo in your car, at night. Badguy number one get's out of the passenger side of a car in front of you at a traffic signal. For the sake of arguement, all exits are blocked by other vehicles in traffic and sidewalk obstacles in the form of lightpoles etc.

BG#1 has walked behind this car, moving across your front to the left, and appears to be going to continue between adjacent stopped vehicles across the road - but makes an abrupt left, out comes a crowbar and he gesters and shouts at you to "get out".

Well, no. You are not going to get out at all. And he hasn't really given you but two seconds to do so anyway, and he shatters your driver's side window. Despite the fact that you "were ready for it", the speed with which he swings the bar against the car, the blow and noise, flying glass, have a certain shock value.

That's it though. You can not escape at this stage. The light has gone green, but BG#2 isn't budging - and the driver in the car to your immediate left is thinking about "helping" you - and isn't moving either, despite the first honking horn behind.

A split second later BG#1 is going to try and brain you. He has this down pat now - no more "arguements" with stubborn drivers. If they do not comply right away; brain them, yank the door open, pull them out, get in and go.

He didn't tell you this, but you were making ready to draw anyway when he left the car, headed back and across your front. When the window shatters, in the second and a half that follows, where a conscious decision becomes action, BG#1 is about wound up for another lunge.

..... And I will speculate that in this hypothetical, and 1001 similar. most people will be better served using a point shoot. With either hand through the window opening, or righthanded through the windshield if needed.

Even outside of a motor vehicle, the radical change in facing direction, posture and attitude might consume too much time in meeting a deadly threat depending on the circumstance.

I do think point shooting is more likely to be useful in engagements at shorter distances, and in shorter time frames between initial threat awareness and the actual decision to shoot. And a fast handling revolver or pistol with better point, balance and handling qualities is going to facilitate things.

---------------------------------------------------------

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I took a 2 day course from Lou Chiodo. He tapes over your sights first day ans and they stay that way. You can do very well without sights at combat distance. You rely on your hand, your eye and your brain lining up to make shots.
 
This is COMBAT shooting, not target shooting. Accuracy in target shooting means something else entirely. I redefine the words "accurate" and "accuracy" as: consistent placement of rounds in the human cardiac triangle (nipple to nipple to hollow of throat) and the occular window (3x5" area around the eyes). In relation to point shooting, I redefine accuracy as "the distance at which you are confident you can score a torso and head hit with either one or two hands on the gun". The key word is CONFIDENCE, which results in different distances by shooter.

Skill in point shooting is essential for getting hits during explosive lateral or diagonal movement. It is not perfect; it is just part of a system of shooting that reduces the amount eyeball on the gun as the URGENCY of the situation increases. As urgency increases, time to properly respond DECREASES. You may need to shoot ON THE MOVE with your hand at the level of your hip because the goblin is so close that there is no time to do anything else. Alternatively, the range may be close, but the goblin has a hostage--so you'll have some time to line up a precise shot using the sights. If the goblin(s) have taken the initiative, then the shooter will be starting his or her OODA loop and the urgency will be high--resulting in reactionary, explosive movement prior to accessing a weapon and shooting with varying degrees of eyeball on the sights. If initiative is equal, then the shooter is in a much better position and may have more time. Regardless of initiative, the shooter must develop the reaction to get off the line of attack first. Point shooting skills allow rapid movement while scoring hits.

Learn to hit the human head and cardiac triangle out to 25-50 yards. The 50 yard thing is more to demonstrate fine control and gain confidence, though you may be required to take such a shot. Point shooting will work somewhere inside that 25 yard mark. For example, I am accurate out to 17 or 18 yards with point shooting at sternum level or above. Part of point shooting practice should be to determine what ranges at what level (of the gun) work for you. When the range appears to reach 15 yards, I tend to hold the gun high near the level of my chin (or higher, depending upon level of urgency).

Finally, people who are routinely carry a weapon should be proficient in firing from the retention position. Part of this is knowing how to handle a gun grab, as well as knowing how to fight with their fists and using grappling. This is a very underrated skill since people tend to believe the gun will act as a magic talisman and ward off goblins. But what does one do when the unarmed thugs continue to advance on you, regardless of your commands? If they get too close, the shooter won't be able to access his or her weapon in time. Too far...and they'll TRY to hang you in court (though two or three demos of the unarmed techniques and speed involved can mitigate this problem. Fortunately, most state laws seem to be based on reasonable fear of death, maiming, or significant injury).

In summary, people involved with self-defense need to redefine accuracy from the traditional competitive model to one that is based upon the realities of combat. Since the goal is to end the threat, torso and head hits are essential, with "10 ring" hits being in the cardiac triangle and occular window. The type of shooting used should be based upon time available to act, urgency and distance. More urgent situations mean less use of the sights. Additionally, less distance to the threat means the gun must stay closer to the body. Three range groups should be trained with different shooting techniques: 25-50 yards, under 25 yards (both sighted and unsighted) and shooting from retention or while grappling. Finally, integral to all these techniques is the skill to manage contacts and learn to properly time the deployment of weapons.
 
Regarding:

I do think point shooting is more likely to be useful in engagements at shorter distances, and in shorter time frames between initial threat awareness and the actual decision to shoot. And a fast handling revolver or pistol with better point, balance and handling qualities is going to facilitate things.
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This is a misconception about POINT and SIGHTED shooting. The "natural" point of a weapon in the hand does NOT matter. With sighted shooting, we orient on the sights, not the natural point of the weapon--nullifying any differences. What matters in point shooting are the following:

1) Looking at a very small point on the target like a laser beam is coming from your eyes
2) Convulsive grip such that you are holding the gun very, very tightly
3) Determine horizontal for that gun
4) Determine your body's "centerline", which is based upon some spot on or around your dominant eye. The gun should be vertically aligned with this spot.
5) Practice to gain confidence.

Regarding #3: horizontal. Only practice will teach your body what horizontal to the ground means. Different guns will feel differently at horizontal. It's not a big deal to change handguns; you'll know what to do. Some will try to make a big stink over this, but I've overcome this with practice. Small revolver, large semi-auto, or whatever...if you practice, your body and brain will work together. You're not as stupid as some people would have you think.
 
Of course it's practical. It takes TIME to aim. At very close distances and under extreme circumstances it is necessary to point shoot.
 
As you get a little older and your eye sight fades it's tougher to see the front sight and target simultaneously; therefore point shooting almost becomes your reality. My eyes are still good, but my shooting buddy's are waning. I would greatly recommend practicing point shooting for defensive situations. You won't want to waste precious split-seconds trying to line up sights, nor do I think it will even be a conscious thought. It will just happen. So you might as well have a little experience with it before hand. I encorporate point shooting from various hand/body positions each time I practice.
 
Using sights at less than 30 feet is a waste of time.

Point shooting is more practicle at close range. You need the extra speed engaging multiple targets. It really isn't hard to master.

When I took a pistol course that a nearby group of officers were putting together on the weekend ($150), we concentrated on point shooting until we moved more than 25' from the target. (and assumed we would have time to aim in that situation)

I was surprized how easy it was. 21' out, draw, point (no sights), 2 to COM, 1 to head. We tried this also with 3 targets. The instructor would call out which 2 out of 3 to hit instead of saying draw.

We also tried drawing from less than 5' where you don't want to extend the gun out because it could be reached by your target. Usually you would put your left hand up to push off the target but we kept that hand in our pocket. Newbies tend to shoot thier left hand during this drill.

This was simple to. Draw from holster, as soon as barrel clears holster rotate it forward towards target without extending your arm, 2 or 3 COM, then extend some and 1 to the head. Shooting from the hip (they called it retention position). This was surprizingly fast. Shorter guns without safeties were the fastest. I would "cheat" somtimes by runing the drill with my 1911's safety off. (Assuming sometimes that in bad areas I would think ahead to turn the saftey of while the weapon was still in the holster.)

I found Glock compacts (G19) to be the fastest. Subcompacts were tricky to get a good hold of, but with practice coulds be faster. Fullsize guns needed lifted too high to clear leather and were slower to get on target and had my arm at a hgher more awkward angle than he smaller Glocks.

Anyway most, allmost all,of battles involving a CCW or an officer occur at ranges less than 15 feet and last less than 5 seconds. Usually less than 3s.
Point shooting and shooting from the retension position are obviously needed to learn according to those stats.

Now I just need to find a range/pistol club that allows this type of training in Ohio. Pistol training classes that are more involved seem too expensive right now. $350 for a weekend class plus travel/hotel and 1200 rounds of ammo.

I'm going to get flamed for this: If you have a good imagination try playing paintball outdoors or on a speedball field. This simple sport shows perfectly how fast you need to move, and they have no sights at all. It also helps you understand where you stick out and become an easy target.
 
Excellent points throughout this thread. I am a strong advocate of point shooting and the posts touch on the most important advantages.

1. You will often be in a position where some type of point shooting is the only possible option.
2. It is a viable option for those with poor eyesight. I would claim it even gives the average shooter a big advantage in low-light situations.

The training problem is that simply throwing massive amounts of lead at targets with no self-critique or external coaching is not effective. During training for point shooting you must always be able to see the bullet impact point so that your eyes and body get the feedback they need to build up point-shooting eye/ hand coordination. Start training close-in to a big target and work out from the target slowly as your skill improves. When you have the confidence use normal targets at normal ranges but always be ready for the occasional refresher on the big targets.

Matt Tempkin and Brownie who both post on this and the shadow forum both instruct their versions of point-shooting.
 
Actually it is Matt Tem(no P)kin
Yes, point shooting is practical.
It is easy to learn and hard to forget, even after years of non practice.
Lots of good instructors out there ( Chiodo is gold) so check it out.
 
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