Is Position Sul Safe? (Video enclosed)

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FrankDude72

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Hey y'all,

Occasionally I get into discussions where somebody says my IDPA SO, or my FTO, or whomever says that using Position Sul isn't allowed because you point the muzzle at your body.

I got sick of the drivel and decided to definitively prove that anybody properly doing Sul ain't covered by the muzzle in any way.

So here's my little video polemic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrYEBNFhsd8&feature=player_embedded


Hope y'all find this useful.


BTW, Kevan at TEES-Brazil mentioned to me of writing an article on when he and Alan Brosnan were in the military police barracks and Max Joseph exclaimed "Hey Kevan! Kiwi! Get a load of this!", meaning Sul.

Once the article comes out I'll be sure to follow up.
 
Why would you assume Position SUL during a course of fire at an IDPA match?
 
You won't point the gun at your body if you are doing it right. But it does violate the '180 degree' IDPA rule.
 
If you're a cop or other LEO person moving through a group of people I can see using this method. But at a range where you're under the control of an RO there is no reason at all to use this. The gun is either pointed at a target or being reloaded while still being generally up and pointed towards the downrange area or it's cleared and in your holster. The average Joe just has no need to use such a position at any time where an RO is holding a timer behind/beside you.

And if you did use such a motion for whatever reason they are quite right to call you on it. Because of their position behind and/or to one side of you you've taken the gun out of their view and down to a position where they would assume you are at risk of sweeping your body. And they would be very justified in calling on you to stop and then to unload and show clear as you did something that did something with the gun that resulted in sweeping yourself FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE. Note the caps. It's not up to you to make that call. It's up to them as they are the SO that is running you. You move the gun out of a normal handling position far enough and in that manner and I'd assume that you swept yourself and call you on it as well. Folks have been called for fingers on triggers just because they didn't get their finger up onto the slide far enough and the calls stuck. This would be a similar situation. You not only have to run the stage in a safe manner but you have to do it in a way that appears safe to the RO/SO that's running you.

So instead of trying to convert the world it would be best for you to just go with the flow and handle your gun in a way that makes the job of the RO or SO that's running you through a stage easier to judge.
 
David E said:
Why would you assume Position SUL during a course of fire at an IDPA match?
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Exactly.

You're not stacking before breaching a door. I do not allow if I am the SO/MD. If you violate the trigger finger rule, you're one stumble away from possibly shooting yourself.
 
I kind of understand how anal people get at the matches, but how to you practice for "real world" use then?

I pretty much always use the SUL as a ready or moving position too, but I can practice where I dont have someone freaking out about it.
 
IDPA may not be truly real world but of the various forms of pistol competition it's the most realistic of the lot.

And just how often do you get to practice real life situations where you train on how to draw from concealment, use cover and reload under stress? It may hardly be perfect by a long shot but at least you're pracitising in ways that have some application in a real situation and you're generating as much adrenaline in most folks as you can legally cause short of shooting back at them. And it's a darn sight better than ANYTHING you can do standing still at a bench shooting at paper.

As for this SUL position, if you're not in a position to find yourself traveling with a brace of armed companions I fail to see why anyone in a defense situation would use this gun position. When you're defending yourself you're either pointing the gun at a potential target or it's lowered to a low ready position with both hands still on the grips and trigger finger laid along the slide or it's safed and back in the holster where there's no immenent threat. There's really no viable need for it to be in anything but these three positions for a sole defender.

This SUL position seems to be akin to the across the chest position for a modern military assault rifle when operating in a stable but potentially hostile environment. But the more proper "parking" position for any sort of handgun is in the holster other than the already mentioned possibility of a stack up of an armed group about to perform an entry to a hostile building or area. And that just is not something you're going to be involved in outside of the military or SWAT team. It certainly does not apply at all to a shooting competition.
 
if you're not in a position to find yourself traveling with a brace of armed companions I fail to see why anyone in a defense situation would use this gun position.
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Bingo....

Hell of a first post. Please do not construe that to believe I mean that in a positive way.
 
"As for this SUL position, if you're not in a position to find yourself traveling with a brace of armed companions I fail to see why anyone in a defense situation would use this gun position."

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Hmmmm, thats an easy one actually. How about a crowded area where chaos is all broken loose such as a mall or carnival. If your initial threat has stopped you can easily sweep people from a low ready while scanning the area, your gun could get knocked out of your hand by somebody running by, another threat could come out of nowhere and have a MUCH easier time taking the gun from you in a low ready compared to the SUL which is better for retention.

In addition, personally when scanning I would rather see a gun handler with little experience in the SUL position than a compressed or low ready position in a tense situation. Based on some of the classes I've taken in the past it is flat out scary seeing the lack of muzzle discipline and fingers in trigger guards when they shouldn't be from your average CPLer.

I'm not saying SUL is the end-all-be-all position, but it CERTAINLY has its places beyond breaching a door. It's just another tool to go to in the right situations.

To the OP, you are 100% correct. If SUL is used properly you will not in anyway shoot yourself, period. As the previous statement said, excellent first post!
 
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Hmmmm, thats an easy one actually. How about a crowded area where chaos is all broken loose such as a mall or carnival. If your initial threat has stopped you can easily sweep people from a low ready while scanning the area, your gun could get knocked out of your hand by somebody running by, another threat could come out of nowhere and have a MUCH easier time taking the gun from you in a low ready compared to the SUL which is better for retention.
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Exactly.

It allows you to be low keyed and instantly ready, easily move quickly in any direction, and you have much better control of the gun.

Someone with a pistol in SUL, with their elbows tucked in, is barely noticeable and has pretty much total muzzle control, as compared to some one running around in low ready, which I dont think is all that great a position anyway. Either keep it in tight, or put it on the target. Moving around in low ready makes you look lost, and easily found.

I understand IDPA is what it is, but you also have to understand, there are some things that are what it aint. If you cant practice things in 360*, then you need to make the effort to make up for what lacks in what youre doing.
 
As for this SUL position, if you're not in a position to find yourself traveling with a brace of armed companions I fail to see why anyone in a defense situation would use this gun position.
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Home defense.
 
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