JohnBT
Member
I think you can get by with a 14 ga. and a 28 ga.
Is the 12 really needed?
- Thread starter Okiecruffler
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only1asterisk
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PTK is right about it being way more complicated than that.
In your simplified example, the 20ga would require less power to come to 20k psi and would maintain higher pressure longer. The 12ga would intitially accelerate faster, but pressure will drop off faster too.
Most time it works out that the 20ga takes less powder. Additionally, the smaller gauges are factory loaded to higher peak pressures than the 12ga.
Even if you could get the exact same velocity from the amount of the same powder, the 20ga would still recoil slightly less (the wad column weighs less).
David
Milkmaster
Member
This is hilarious seeing you guy's opinions. I see the same similar arguments in the pistol or rifle sections etc over which caliber cartridge is best. I have 12's, 20's, .410's, .22's, 30-30's, 9mm, and I like 'em all for one reason or another. Guns are a little like women. None are quite the same, not all are best at one particular task. They come in all shapes and sizes and somebody loves most every one of them. Luckily I can afford more than one gun. I can't afford more than one woman even though I ain't blind! I would have to say my wife would have to be a 12 ga, because she is purty to look at and does a lot of things well. Similarities between the love for guns and women are more than you think if you take time. Nice thread guys. I have enjoyed it.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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What's the story there?
DaleCooper51
Member
Drinking Wild Turkey isn't so bad either...
Matt-J2
Member
Needed?
No.
Darn useful?
Indeed.
No.
Darn useful?
Indeed.
I have a 16. Just finished the second iteration of fitting the stock to me this morning. It's an old SxS (made 1926). It's a neat gun. But it hasn't turned me into a 16 Gauge fanatic.
The 12 is certainly "needed". 12 and 20 are probably the two gauges that make the most sense for most gun buyers in 2008, IMHO.
I think the gauges fall out like this (assuming modern gun designs, modern materials and weights). This is from a hunting perspective.
10 Gauge: Closest thing to a punt gun that won't get you arrested. Big clunker with serious recoil. It will sling a lot of shot if you need that, though.
12 Gauge: Largest payloads that fit in a wingshooting gun that still handles well. Can be used for anything, but most 12's are a handicap on fast-moving upland birds. With non-toxic shot laws, it's about the only game in town for waterfowl, for better or worse.
16 Gauge: Used to be a great all-rounder, but improvements in gun construction and laws requiring steel shot have really reduced its advantages and limited its utility. Perfectly matched with pheasant, still. Inexpensive heavy-as-lead non-tox shotshells, offered in conjunction with some great 16's from various gun companies, could resurrect it, but there's no real push to do this like there has been with Leverevolution or the various Short or Compact Magnums in the rifle world.
20 Gauge: The upland gauge. Sufficient payload, perfect balance in a field gun, quick by not toothpicky. Not too big to handle quickly, not too small to bring down birds or to load with larger shot.
28 Gauge: Dubious gauge, due to factors that aren't the gauge's fault. Unfortunately, most common production 28's are 20's with smaller bores and higher MSRP's. Those that aren't, are wonderful guns. Factory ammo prices are silly. Offers little to the practically-minded shooter on a budget -- just get a 20 -- unless he/she's really recoil-sensitive or something. The idea works, but the real-world execution still leaves a bit to be desired. This seems to be changing a bit. Maybe. Shot size limitations are still a handicap.
.410 There's always got to be a "biggest" and a "smallest". .410 is "smallest." Recoil won't scare off a kid learning to shoot, but the difficulty of hitting anything might be discouraging.
I'll repeat: I'm talking about modern production guns. I'm sure that an old A5 is better to handle in 16 than in 12. My old Lefever is a lot better in 16 than 12, too. But so what, really?
I have not seen any of the 16 Gauge gang compare modern firearms when extolling the virtues of the 16. Their comparisons and opinions about weight and balance are 50 years old -- and I'm sure they're true regarding the old guns. But this is not 1958.
The 12 is certainly "needed". 12 and 20 are probably the two gauges that make the most sense for most gun buyers in 2008, IMHO.
I think the gauges fall out like this (assuming modern gun designs, modern materials and weights). This is from a hunting perspective.
10 Gauge: Closest thing to a punt gun that won't get you arrested. Big clunker with serious recoil. It will sling a lot of shot if you need that, though.
12 Gauge: Largest payloads that fit in a wingshooting gun that still handles well. Can be used for anything, but most 12's are a handicap on fast-moving upland birds. With non-toxic shot laws, it's about the only game in town for waterfowl, for better or worse.
16 Gauge: Used to be a great all-rounder, but improvements in gun construction and laws requiring steel shot have really reduced its advantages and limited its utility. Perfectly matched with pheasant, still. Inexpensive heavy-as-lead non-tox shotshells, offered in conjunction with some great 16's from various gun companies, could resurrect it, but there's no real push to do this like there has been with Leverevolution or the various Short or Compact Magnums in the rifle world.
20 Gauge: The upland gauge. Sufficient payload, perfect balance in a field gun, quick by not toothpicky. Not too big to handle quickly, not too small to bring down birds or to load with larger shot.
28 Gauge: Dubious gauge, due to factors that aren't the gauge's fault. Unfortunately, most common production 28's are 20's with smaller bores and higher MSRP's. Those that aren't, are wonderful guns. Factory ammo prices are silly. Offers little to the practically-minded shooter on a budget -- just get a 20 -- unless he/she's really recoil-sensitive or something. The idea works, but the real-world execution still leaves a bit to be desired. This seems to be changing a bit. Maybe. Shot size limitations are still a handicap.
.410 There's always got to be a "biggest" and a "smallest". .410 is "smallest." Recoil won't scare off a kid learning to shoot, but the difficulty of hitting anything might be discouraging.
I'll repeat: I'm talking about modern production guns. I'm sure that an old A5 is better to handle in 16 than in 12. My old Lefever is a lot better in 16 than 12, too. But so what, really?
I have not seen any of the 16 Gauge gang compare modern firearms when extolling the virtues of the 16. Their comparisons and opinions about weight and balance are 50 years old -- and I'm sure they're true regarding the old guns. But this is not 1958.
only1asterisk
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Bah humbug!
David
Okiecruffler
Member
Okay, first off, you turkey hunters have spent too much time sitting under a tree. Read the whole thing, ie if the 20 can't do it the 10 can do it better than the 12. But that's okay, I'll forgive you since you wear so much make-up.
I just posted this because it's been a few days since I saw a "what's the use for a 20, 16 or 10 gauge?" thread in a while and thought I'd turn it around abit. Well that and it was really boring at work last night. You guys know my 12 ain't going nowhere. I might start loading more 7/8's and less 1 1/8 tho. I ain't as young as I used to be.
And I can't help but notice that it's turned into a "what good is the 16 or 28 ga?" thread.
I just posted this because it's been a few days since I saw a "what's the use for a 20, 16 or 10 gauge?" thread in a while and thought I'd turn it around abit. Well that and it was really boring at work last night. You guys know my 12 ain't going nowhere. I might start loading more 7/8's and less 1 1/8 tho. I ain't as young as I used to be.
And I can't help but notice that it's turned into a "what good is the 16 or 28 ga?" thread.
machinisttx
Member
If there was a larger variety of 16 gauge loadings(as well as some GOOD reloadable hulls), my 12 gauges would gather dust. If, along with the above, manufacturers offered correctly built and proportional 16 gauges, I'd bet more folks would buy one. My 20 gauge gets almost zero use.
When nontoxic shot was mandated, and "magnums" became the norm, the old 16 wasn't given any attention. Ammo makers didn't offer effective nontoxic loadings(and nothing other than steel shot for several years), and gun manufacturers didn't offer 3" or 3.5" chambers. That meant the 16 was no longer on the radar of waterfowl hunters.
Another thing that hasn't done the 16 any good is the tendency for manufacturers to built a 16 gauge on a 12 gauge frame, rather than one scaled down in both size and weight. If you're carrying an 8 pound gun, it doesn't make any sense to have it chambered in the smaller shell. If, in choosing a 16, you got a 7 pound(or lighter) gun, there would be more incentive for folks to choose it. After all, you can load 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 ounce in a 2 3/4" 16 gauge..... My experience with the 16 has been limited(so far) to the "square load" of an ounce of shot. I have been immensely impressed with it, taking dove out to 50 yards with ease using a modified choke. The old timers knew that the 16 offered a lot more than simple load data indicated.....
Manufacturers tended to scale down guns built for the 20, so you got a more lively gun that was/is easier to carry. The 20 was also "modernized" to handle 3" shells.
The 16 hasn't died because people didn't like it, it died because manufacturers haven't given people any reason to buy one...they've done just about everything they can to kill it.
When nontoxic shot was mandated, and "magnums" became the norm, the old 16 wasn't given any attention. Ammo makers didn't offer effective nontoxic loadings(and nothing other than steel shot for several years), and gun manufacturers didn't offer 3" or 3.5" chambers. That meant the 16 was no longer on the radar of waterfowl hunters.
Another thing that hasn't done the 16 any good is the tendency for manufacturers to built a 16 gauge on a 12 gauge frame, rather than one scaled down in both size and weight. If you're carrying an 8 pound gun, it doesn't make any sense to have it chambered in the smaller shell. If, in choosing a 16, you got a 7 pound(or lighter) gun, there would be more incentive for folks to choose it. After all, you can load 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 ounce in a 2 3/4" 16 gauge..... My experience with the 16 has been limited(so far) to the "square load" of an ounce of shot. I have been immensely impressed with it, taking dove out to 50 yards with ease using a modified choke. The old timers knew that the 16 offered a lot more than simple load data indicated.....
Manufacturers tended to scale down guns built for the 20, so you got a more lively gun that was/is easier to carry. The 20 was also "modernized" to handle 3" shells.
The 16 hasn't died because people didn't like it, it died because manufacturers haven't given people any reason to buy one...they've done just about everything they can to kill it.
A few decades ago, sure.
Now, it's easy enough to get a nice 7 lb. 12 Gauge from various vendors in any configuration you want. I wouldn't buy an 8 lb. 12 Gauge unless it was a goose gun, and I don't have to any more.
That was my point about comparing modern guns, not guns of yesteryear.
And I LIKE the 16.
Not at all.
The 12 Gauge really can only be judged against what's out there in the marketplace. A theoretical 13 Gauge 3 1/4" magnum shell might work great with depleted uranium shot, but I haven't seen any of those lately.
Can the 20 replace the 12? No.
So, it's the 12 vs. the 16 vs. the 10.
10 = clunker, not a great wingshooting bore
16 = limited by reality, even if great in theory
12 = the one the works, or is "needed"
If 10 and 16 didn't exist, we'd all do fine with 12. Something like 99% of us already do.
Now does the 12 replace the 20? Nope. We'd really miss the 20, and not just for sentimental reasons.
Context matters.
And as I said, I LIKE the 16.
My only shotty is an 870 20ga that I bought right before Y2K as my only gun (at the time; I'd sold all my other firearms earlier in a fit of stupidity 
). All I use it for now is occasional clay busting.
What do I do with it? I've thought of trying to find a spare barrel that I could cut short in order to use it for HD (even though I have other guns for that), but there apparently isn't any such thing as an inexpensive shotgun barrel.
May just go for a Mossy 500 HD gun in 12ga eventually.
). All I use it for now is occasional clay busting.What do I do with it? I've thought of trying to find a spare barrel that I could cut short in order to use it for HD (even though I have other guns for that), but there apparently isn't any such thing as an inexpensive shotgun barrel.
May just go for a Mossy 500 HD gun in 12ga eventually.
JohnBT
Member
"Can the 20 replace the 12? No."
Why not? You only have to get a few steps closer than you do with a 12. You can kill turkey with them easily. And ducks and geese and about anything that's a reasonable target for shotgun.
I like 28 ga. too.
John
Why not? You only have to get a few steps closer than you do with a 12. You can kill turkey with them easily. And ducks and geese and about anything that's a reasonable target for shotgun.
I like 28 ga. too.
John
only1asterisk
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This is the truth.
David
rantingredneck
Member
I wanna go on that hunt
MCgunner
Member
I was in a hunting club for a while that had turkey on their leases and got to shoot a nice tom. Used my SxS 12 gauge to do it, full choke at 40 yards.
Turkey hunting in Texas is by lease, all private land, and not cheap. I can hunt hogs a lot cheaper even if I wasn't over run with hogs on my place, and hogs have a lot more meat on 'em. I ain't payin' what land owners want to shoot a friggin' turkey.
I enjoyed it, though, was great fun.Okay, so today I ordered and paid for a 10 gauge. It will be for geese. I don't do a lot of goose hunting anymore, but I'm just sick and tired of 12 gauge 3" BB failing past 35 yards and hevi shot has gotten ridiculous, only for the rich.
Hevi shot works well in 12 gauge 3", but $2.60 a shot just goes against my Scotch-Irish/German blood mix. Causes terrible bad physiological reactions. I decided, for this application, the 12 just ain't enough, not in a steel shot world.
Okiecruffler
Member
I used to hunt pterodactyls, but my back was killing me after carrying the decoys.
Gotta be careful with that joke, it's an antique.
Hornet 6
Member
And that is truth, but guns are never a question need
Guns are always what we Think We Need or more honestly, what we like.
And they are rarely the same thing, most people who shoot clays, or game would be better off with a 12g even if only on a cost basis, and then you have the multitude of 12g loads available.
My choice of a 28g make no sense to anybody but me, and even I know it's more about wanting to be different.
But don't ask me to my face, I'll lie and say the 28g is far superior
Neil.
MCgunner
Member
Well, if they'd get rid of that asinine steel shot law for waterfowl, the 10 would go back to the grave it popped out of when steel shot was mandated and we'd have no need for anything else, but until then....... I should add, if the tungsten market would go back to reasonable, same deal. But, at 2.60 a pop, only guys like Bill Gates can hunt with the crap.
And I like my SxS 20. I ain't givin' it up! Me and my 20 on the left. My buddy and his Mossy 835 on the right, last year. We both got limits, but I shot a couple less rounds per bird. Not a real accomplishment, though. He ain't exactly Tom Knapp, but then, neither am I.
And I like my SxS 20. I ain't givin' it up! Me and my 20 on the left. My buddy and his Mossy 835 on the right, last year. We both got limits, but I shot a couple less rounds per bird.
Not a real accomplishment, though. He ain't exactly Tom Knapp, but then, neither am I.
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