Is the new colt m4 any better than the rest of the milspecs out there?

[bassjam]

Here's a lengthy side by side teardown of an older Colt vs the newer one.

The Colt LE6920 vs CR6920 - The Evolution of the LE6920 and Differences in the CR6920

MaTech Mil-Spec Back-up Iron Sight (B.U.I.S) https://amzn.to/3xqpb3zMagpul MBUS PRO Steel Backup Sights https://amzn.to/3vzxNn5Otis Technology Cleaning Kit 5...

www.youtube.com

My personal opinion, either is a fine gun, just overpriced unless you can find one for around $800 or less.

 

[doubleh]

I have owned both a Colt and Smith M&P. If not for the lettering and different handguards I could not tell any difference. That is almost the total extent of my AR knowledge. The AR bandwagon never had much attraction for me. My son knows a great deal more, starting with his army service, and says both are very good.

 

[tarosean]

If I wanted a premium AR, it wouldn't be a Colt.

To me they are "middle of the rung". To go premium we are not talking the same $ amount the OP stated. How many Colts can I buy for KAC $$?

 

[mcb]

To me they are "middle of the rung". To go premium we are not talking the same $ amount the OP stated. How many Colts can I buy for KAC $$?

Yeah but you are paying an even larger premium for the Knights logo on your lower than a Colt logo. Reed has to pay for his huge gun and tank collection and maybe a super car or two. Not that Knights Armament are not good guns, they are, but they are way over priced for what you get in most cases. Your paying for the prestige as much as anything else.

 

[gotboostvr]

Yeah but you are paying an even larger premium for the Knights logo on your lower than a Colt logo. Reed has to pay for his huge gun and tank collection and maybe a super car or two. Not that Knights Armament are not good guns, they are, but they are way over priced for what you get in most cases. Your paying for the prestige as much as anything else.

The up charge for KAC stuff is mind boggling.

It's good stuff, but whooeee!

 

[Old Dog]

with the new colts are you really just paying a premium for the famous roll mark?

Admitting that I skipped over this question in the OP -- but with the current prices of Colt rifles (the base model), it doesn't seem to me that you would be paying a premium.

The MSRP now on the base model LE6920 M4 (flattop w/MagPul BUIS) is $1099, which means you can surely score one for less. I haven't shopped for a stock AR in a retail outlet recently, but my casual perusals indicate that Colt's prices have come down to a very competitive level for what you would be getting.

If I wanted a premium AR, it wouldn't be a Colt.

So the OP seemed to be asking about currently available (retail) complete rifles - nowhere in this thread have I seen anyone saying a Colt is a premium rifle.

But for those of us who own/have owned such as Daniel Defense, Noveske, KA, LMT, LWRC (some include BCM and a couple other brands) -- the Colt rifles measure up pretty well, depending on how much you shoot and what you use the rifle for. Again, that's just my opinion based on my 44 years of owning and shooting ARs.

At the end of the day, when you're talking about "premium," you're just talking about the flavor du jour brands, where the parts came from, how the parts are made, known inspection processes and stampings,

Here's the stock explanation from some old crap on an AR-centric forum in days gone by:

Many believe that a Tier 1 AR manufacturer makes its rifles to MIL-SPEC; MIL-SPEC is just a marketing catchphrase. A semi-automatic, commercial AR-15 will never be completely Mil-Spec. Supposedly, the best ARs follow Colt’s Technical Data Package.

• A properly staked gas key
• A high pressure tested/MPI and shot-peened bolt
• 4150 steel, chrome-lined or stainless steel MPI and cold-hammer forged barrels
• Chambered in 5.56mm NATO (All AR-15s listed below are chambered in 5.56mm)
• A chrome-lined bore and chamber
• M4 feed ramps
• Mil-Spec-diameter receiver extension (buffer tube) with staked castle nut
• Type III hard coat anodizing

Frankly, I feel that Colt ARs are often unfairly regarded on the internet, with opinions talking about "paying for the Prancing Pony logo on the side" -- as though the discussion is about 1911s and whether Colt 1911s stack up to the "premium brands" or custom makers' products -- which should have no bearing when talking about ARs.

 

[tarosean]

Frankly, I feel that Colt ARs are often unfairly regarded on the internet, with opinions talking about "paying for the Prancing Pony logo on the side" -- as though the discussion is about 1911s and whether Colt 1911s stack up to the "premium brands" or custom makers' products -- which should have no bearing when talking about ARs.

It is "class warfare" pure and simple. Never-mind proprietary parts and man hours from competent individuals.. It is far more involved beyond what a "roll-mark" means.

 

[md7]

It is "class warfare" pure and simple. Never-mind proprietary parts and man hours from competent individuals.. It is far more involved beyond what a "roll-mark" means.

I do agree that pricing is more involved than a roll mark.

4150 steel is a bit more costly than 4140. Chrome lining is more expensive than nitride. Independent testing on parts incurs costs that are not applicable to parts that don’t undergo that. Ultimately, that cost is evident in the pricing of the rifle.

While I think Colt does enjoy brand recognition on some level, I am also inclined to very much agree with you. There’s more to cost than what’s on the roll mark.

 

[Old Dog]

It is far more involved beyond what a "roll-mark" means.

I'm not sure if you are arguing my remarks or not. I was speaking to the oft-spouted phrase that when one purchases a Colt product, they are paying for the roll-mark.

There’s more to cost than what’s on the roll mark.

I don't disagree with you guys. I was speaking to the notion that one is paying a premium for The Prancing Pony, while also noting that, at the current price point for Colt ARs, you get an entirely serviceable rifle that for most owners, will be more than sufficient for their needs. I understand the differentiation between parts, how they're made, testing, etc., not exactly sure who you guys are trying to convince...

 

[tbs]

I'll play the devils advocate. If you buy the Colt you know exactly what your getting and where it was made. You know it run right and if it doesn't you know where to send it. If you ever needed to sell it you would have no problem. The same could be said for the major manufacturers.

I bought a Brigade Manufacturing BM-15 that is better than the Colt i had years ago and better than the Rock River National match i had.
Here is a link if you want to check them out.

5.56 Forged 16

7075-T6 Aluminum Forging 4150 Chrome-Moly 16

brigadefirearms.com

 

[md7]

I'm not sure if you are arguing my remarks or not. I was speaking to the oft-spouted phrase that when one purchases a Colt product, they are paying for the roll-mark.

I don't disagree with you guys. I was speaking to the notion that one is paying a premium for The Prancing Pony, while also noting that, at the current price point for Colt ARs, you get an entirely serviceable rifle that for most owners, will be more than sufficient for their needs. I understand the differentiation between parts, how they're made, testing, etc., not exactly sure who you guys are trying to convince...

My post was directed at Tarosean’s post. Namely that I agreed with him that with Colt some of their pricing is more than just a roll mark.

In reading your post (#31) there’s really nothing there that I disagree with.

Hope you didn’t feel singled out with my post. Certainly not intended that way!

 

[Old Dog]

Hope you didn’t feel singled out with my post. Certainly not intended that way!

Ah, I see! No worries!

 

[tarosean]

I'm not sure if you are arguing my remarks or not.

I was agreeing with you.

 

[Old Dog]

I was agreeing with you.

Ah, the brain fog must be contributing to my abysmal reading comprehension today (dang vax). Thanks!

 

[Charlie98]

I have been happy with the x2 colts i have owned x1 is a national competition match rifle

First AR I ever bought, as soon as I could after I got out of the Army, was a gen-u-wine Colt A2 H-bar, which I still have. It has, absolutely, the worst trigger in the safe... which I always found odd, given that it is meant for match shooting... and the fact that it's a big pin means my choices for an aftermarket trigger are quite limited. Beyond that, it has been a reliable rifle, and certainly worth the money I paid for it... $800 in 1992, if memory serves. While I'm glad I have my Colt, I don't plan on picking up another unless I just happen to stumble upon a bargain somewhere.

One thing about a Colt, it will always have good resale value.

The AR market, probably more than any other market, is so saturated, I don't really see anyone paying an upcharge for a Colt, unless it has some sort of added value to it (rare configuration, early SP, et al) or it was a pristine, unmolested example. I would also think that anything other than a safe queen has likely been altered in some way, because no one ever leaves an AR alone...

I would not pay a premium to have "Colt" stamped on anything. If I wanted a premium AR, it wouldn't be a Colt.

If I wanted a midrange AR... it most likely wouldn't be a Colt. That's the reality of the marketplace.

 

[Megawatt maker]

The only REAL advantage to owning a Colt is resale. You have the best chance of getting most of your money back with a Colt than any other brand..KAC included simply because almost everyone..gunhead or not..knows the name Colt...while names like Daniel or Knights...not so much.

Are Colts really better? No..not in the least. Even a PSA build can have chrome line 4150 CHF steel barrel, Micro best BCG..Giessele trigger, same alloy aluminum, same hardness coatings (or better)...etc..all the best stuff, and yet...the Colt will still bring more.

That's just how the market is...history, tradition, and fame carry more weight.

 

[CraigC]

So the OP seemed to be asking about currently available (retail) complete rifles - nowhere in this thread have I seen anyone saying a Colt is a premium rifle.

If you hadn't broken my post and threw half of it away, you might understand my point.

 

[Old Dog]

If you hadn't broken my post and threw half of it away, you might understand my point.

Um, my point was that at the present time, we really aren't paying a "premium" to have Colt stamped on an AR, nor do most AR cognoscenti consider Colt ARs to be "premium." Simply solid, well-made, serviceable and reliable rifles.

I would not pay a premium to have "Colt" stamped on anything.

This was the first sentence in your thread, and after re-reading it, doesn't change my response.

So what was your point?

 

[CraigC]

Um, my point was that at the present time, we really aren't paying a "premium" to have Colt stamped on an AR, nor do most AR cognoscenti consider Colt ARs to be "premium." Simply solid, well-made, serviceable and reliable rifles.


This was the first sentence in your thread, and after re-reading it, doesn't change my response.

So what was your point?

My point is that you're paying a "premium" for the Colt name and not getting a "premium" AR. Same applies to their SAA.

 

[Old Dog]

My point is that you're paying a "premium" for the Colt name and not getting a "premium" AR. Same applies to their SAA.

Can we just agree to disagree? About the ARs, at least.

The SAA has zero to do with an AR. I've only got about 40-plus years of experience carrying, using and teaching the AR platform in the real world, and where Colt is with the SAA is not germane to this discussion.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

The Colt premium is basically a relic of a different time.

The AR market in the 1990s and 2000s was kind of like the AK market today. You had some "Cadillac" quality rifles being sold at high prices, and some really hit-or-miss entry level rifles where mfgs cut corners to sell them for cheaper prices. A new Colt off the shelf was a known quantity. Your Pony would run, and it would keep running. But with say an Olympic or DPMS, you'd pay your money and take your chances. There were some really sketchy build quality on some of the cheap guns, like cast lower receivers that would crack when you shot them.

Then demand for ARs exploded around 2010s. More mfgs entered the game, and in their quest for market share, they really started pushing up the floor on AR quality. Rifles like the S&W Sport were introduced covered a lot of the details that Olympic chose to skip, for the same price as an Olympic. Eventually, the dodgier manufactures all either raised their quality too, or most went under.

The low tier of ARs basically pushed up and became the new mid tier. The old-school low tier went out of business, and that has put a ton of pressure on the existing mid tier guys like Colt.

In the AR market today, you can buy a PSA kit build for $500 if you want a plinker (that will still run like a top and shoot nice groups), or you can spend $1500+ on a real hard-use or gnat's-butt boutique rifle. That $1000, meet me in the middle zone used to be a sweet spot, but now has become a pretty tough sell.

 

[CraigC]

Can we just agree to disagree? About the ARs, at least.

The SAA has zero to do with an AR. I've only got about 40-plus years of experience carrying, using and teaching the AR platform in the real world, and where Colt is with the SAA is not germane to this discussion.

What are we disagreeing on, exactly? I thought we both basically said the Colt is not a premium AR???

Or that folks are not paying a premium? Isn't that exactly what this thread is about? Are you telling me that you can't get a mil-spec AR for less than what a Colt costs?

It's exactly like the SAA. Folks are paying way more than the gun is worth because it has the Colt name on it. Same/same. In other words, folks pay more for the Colt name, no matter what it is stamped on.

 

[Old Dog]

Or that folks are not paying a premium? Isn't that exactly what this thread is about? Are you telling me that you can't get a mil-spec AR for less than what a Colt costs?

Okay, I see... I think we were talking apples and oranges. Yes, I agree that I would not consider Colt a premium AR. Solid, worthy, reliable, durable, a good choice for an entry level AR. Of course one can build a mil-spec AR or perhaps even find a complete rifle on the retail market for less than what a complete Colt costs. Will it be as good as the Colt? That's when things become pretty much subjective.

But no, as far as complete production ARs go, I don't think one is paying a premium price for Colt ARs at this time. The MSRP has come down about $200, and now there are some other makers out there charging around the same or more for their basic mid-tier AR (Springfield Armory comes to mind) models. Even the Ruger AR-556 has an MSRP only $80 lower than the base model Colt M-4. If one is happy with DPMS, Del-Ton, Diamondback, S&W, PSA, etc., maybe one has the perspective that Colt charges premium prices.

My thinking is that proliferation of AR manufacturers and now so many hobbyist consumers, the AR market is just stupid crazy right now. Guys getting into the platform want the cheapest entry-level rifle they can find; once they start learning about ARs and get heavy into the platform, the snob effect starts taking hold and people start obsessing about such things as "mil-spec" and "tiers."

Then we get Youtubers such as SmallArmsSolutions doing videos obsessing about the changes in rollmarks/markings on products and pontificating on the evolution of manufacturers' guns (more MIM, more outsourcing of parts, etc.) when most of the changes have virtually no impact on the quality of the product.

I would agree that Colt over-prices their 1911s -- while they are typically accurate and adequately reliable out of the box, many other makers provide substantially more features on their comparably priced 1911s, i.e., factory night sights, frontstrap checkering, smoothing sharp edges, etc.).

I don't know about current SAAs -- my only experience is with a couple second generation models, and there's no way I'd try and buy a 3rd gen -- I'm happy with my Italian stallions.

So, to conclude, I view the Colt ARs differently than I do its 1911s and its SAAs, I just don't think comparing the ARs to Colt's other products is a fair comparison. But again, this is just one guy's opinion.

 

[citizenconn]

Mil-spec is made by the lowest builder. There is nothing spectacular about it being "mil-spec". There is also nothing Colt does that is worth the premium they charge for their guns and parts. If you're willing to do the research you can build an AR with equal or better parts and do so with a nice cost savings. There is nothing wrong with Colt AR but there is also little to justify their cost. I own a bunch of AR's only one of which was bought as an assembled gun, the rest were built from parts. Not one Colt part anywhere.

*full disclosure I am a Colt hater.

I am not a Colt hater, but there is nothing particularly special about their M4 rifles. They work, are reliable, but are very basic. I have a couple of select fire M16A variants as well as three M4 clones and over 50 other AR15s (and 25+ AR10s) of various calibers and configurations. New shooters I take out initially gravitate to the Milspec rifles but quickly want to try and continue to use and greatly prefer the other ARs I have that have many more enhancements. Same goes for my Milspec 1911s versus my enhanced ones.

If someone asked me what Milspec type AR to buy I would steer them towards BCM, which I feel is a better built, more reliable firearm that a Colt.

 

[mcb]

I really like the AR platform but to be honest I can't remember the last time I took one of my 223/556 AR's out to shoot them. I have AR's in 22LR, 300 BO, 30 RAR and 450 BM that get uses way more often than my 223/556 guns. And neither of my 223/556 guns look anything like an M16 or M4, I just don't have any need or desire to own an M4/M16 clone. One of the biggest attraction of the AR platform for me is I get to tailor the gun to exactly what I want/need for my own particular use. They are easy to work on and there are tons of accessories and options for the platform.