Is the South Gun-Friendly?

[ForeignDude]

While researching carry laws in North Carolina (which might be my next duty station), I found many restrictions on where/when individuals can legally carry.

To be sure, I received many replies from individuals who either live, or have spent time, in those states. The commentary was always of the following type: “Don’t worry; things are not as bad as they seem. People are very gun-friendly here, you won’t find trouble if you carry at XXXX, etc.”

At any rate, I decided to look at this issue further and I noticed an interesting pattern.

Based on information provided at Packing.org and OpenCarry.org, and their associated forums, I noted that most of the states comprising the Deep South are not as gun-“friendly” as they are made out to be in the popular culture. North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia have so many restrictions on legal concealed carry that it seems almost a moot point to carry; Texas has almost as many restrictions on concealed carry. South Carolina prohibits open carry, as do Texas, Florida, and Arkansas. Alabama remains a “May Issue” state. The only exceptions to the restrictive trend appear to be Virginia and Tennessee.

Contrast this with states in other regions of the country. The only two states in the Union where individuals can carry openly or concealed without a license are outside of the South: Vermont and Alaska. There are fewer off-limit places in Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Idaho, and Washington than in virtually all of the states of the Deep South. Open carry is perfectly kosher in New Mexico, but step over the border into Texas, and you’ll get arrested. You can carry at any highway rest stop in Pennsylvania, but doing the same will get you busted in Georgia; you can carry at a movie theater in Arizona, but don’t try it in North Carolina.

Keep in mind, I am only going by what is on the books, but it seems that the South’s reputation as being oriented more strongly towards gun rights than other sections of the country may not be entirely accurate. It was based on this reputation that I had planned to retire in the South; I love Texas, don't get me wrong, but...

I am looking for your thoughts on this issue. What do y’all make of this?

 

[TexasRifleman]

I am looking for your thoughts on this issue. What do y’all make of this?

My thought is that you've tied only one issue, concealed/open carry, to whether or not a state is gun friendly.

Look also at their peacable journey laws, NFA laws, self defense laws involving firearms etc.

Texas for example might have some restrictions on concealed carry (doesn't seem to me to be many but to you it does) but look at other firearm related items:

No restrictions on NFA items; machine guns, suppressors, short whatevers, AOWs, etc.

Open peaceable journey laws as of last September when travelling was finally fixed. You can travel in texas with a handgun in your vehicle without a permit. Practically no restrictions at all on long arms or knives.

Self defense laws: Texas is one of the few places that has a statute specifically dealing with using a firearm as a deterrent to a threat and it not be considered use of deadly force. Texas has a very solid "castle doctrine" and even allows for use of deadly force to protect property (not going into that debate, just stating the fact).

So I think you've left a lot out in your determination of what makes a state gun friendly.

To use your example then California would be one of the most gun friendly states in the union because they place practically no restrictions on where a CHL holder can carry.

 

[Tommygunn]

Alabama is pretty gun friendly, in my opinion. I'm not sure all southern states are equally friendly, and even in some gun friendly states, there may be areas that aren't. I believe Atlanta Georgi is fairly liberal, although I'm not certain how much that's effected gun laws there.

 

[WolfMansDad]

I grew up in the South, and I never thought of the culture as particularly gun- or self-defense-friendly. I remember having to show ID and sign for purchasing ammunition, and all the "respectable" southerners I knew were anti's. They really looked down their noses at my "redneck" hunting hobby! When my grandfather wanted to buy a .22 pistol, he had to do it through the sherrif, get a background check, and fill out a bunch of paperwork. (I think that law has changed now, but I still can't go to Tennessee and buy a long gun. They won't sell anything to a Californian.)

California, on the other hand, may have some squirrely gun laws on the surface, but look closer and you'll find that the ones that matter the most are very reasonable: We've had castle doctrine all along, as far as I can tell. CCW holders can carry anywhere they go. Most counties are essentially shall-issue (the few that aren't need fixing). It's true I can't buy an AR15, and that sucks. However, that doesn't affect my ability to defend myself or to go hunting.

Yes, you can buy cooler guns in the south and not have to wait for them, but those freedoms are mostly cosmetic. There are, in my experience, more restrictions on what you can do with them than there are in California.

If I had my druthers, there would be no firearms restrictions at all, but I'll take California's laws over (most of) the South's any day.

 

['Card]

I'd say the southeast is very gun friendly, but not necessarily CCW-friendly, if that makes any sense. I realize that the two are largely inextricable for the usual hardcore RKBA supporter, but that isn't always the case among the general population. There's also a big difference between the rural south, where guns are accepted as a routine and normal part of life - and the urban south, which in many places has been invaded by (and influenced by) liberal yankees (/spit) over the last two decades, and so naturally attitudes can vary widely.

In order to understand the situation, you have to kind of understand the southern attitude. During the colonial period, people moved to the south, far away from the growing population centers like New York and Philadelphia, for one very specific reason - they wanted to be left alone. That mentality (in my opinion) led directly to the Civil War, and still carries over in a lot of ways to this day. Your right to do what you want on your property is a big deal all over the US, but it's a Very Big Deal in the rural south. So for a southerner, it's not a contradiction to believe that you can own all the firearms you want, but not believe it's all that important for you to be able to tote your shootin' iron to the movie theater.

I'd also keep in mind that many of the more restrictive gun laws in the south were originally passed during the Jim Crow era, and were intended to keep pistols out of the hands of blacks. It wasn't unusual for the county sheriff to double as the Grand Poobah of the local klan chapter. While still on the books, the vast majority of those laws are either ignored, or considered little more than a formality.

 

[SolaScriptura139]

We're not exactly the south, but West Virginia is one of the most gun friendly states I've ever been in. Most people here have guns, at least rifles. And there are few gun control laws here, legal open carry, shall issue, don't have to register handguns, 21 to own from retail sale, 18 from private sale (handguns), 18 to open carry, 21 for ccw. And most people here (with the exception of the college students at WVU) are pretty open to gun ownership.

 

[Helstrm]

SC seems pretty gun friendly to me. As far as carry goes. I can carry pretty much everywhere I go as long as it is not a School, Gov. building, Hospital or anywhere they serve alchohol.

State parks, Rest stops, Stores(if the store permits it) The only store that I have found that I can't carry in is Toys-R-Us ...

 

[hugh damright]

The only two states in the Union where individuals can carry openly or concealed without a license are outside of the South: Vermont and Alaska.

I believe that there is a difference between the population of the South and the populations of Vermont and Alaska that impacts CCW laws (a certain moderator gets upset if I tell you what this difference is, but I think it should be obvious). And I don't reckon Alaskans are yankees. I don't think you can focus only on CCW and ignore the population difference I refer to and consider Alaska to be a yankee State ... and conclude that the South's gun laws are as bad as the North's.

I believe that in general the federal gun laws pass in the North and fail in the South. And I believe that in general the gun laws are more despotic in the North.

 

[Zen21Tao]

Guns have always been a big part of South heritage. That is, at least until all the dam* yankees started come down.

 

[cbsbyte]

Overall, I believe that the south has a stronger gun culture than most of the Northeast. Rural areas in the north have no where near as many gunowners as in the Southern states. That being said many of the strict gun laws in the South are carry overs fromt the Jim crow laws, which where created to keep blacks from arming themseleves. I should add that their are less restrictions on CCW in Mass, than in many southern states. But in the south it is easier to get a CCW license than it is in most Northern states.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Georgia has a really bad concealed carry law, even though it is shall issue.

You cannot carry at any place that serves alcohol (including restaurants), churches, public buildings, political rallies, sporting events or anything else that the local police consider a "public gathering". Additionally, you are required to carry only using a holster of some kind, so no pocket carry without a holster, mexican style, etc.

The renewal process for the permit is also painfully slow, and I believe the State is being sued over that right now.

 

[XDKingslayer]

I am looking for your thoughts on this issue. What do y’all make of this?

I agree with TexasSIGMan and that you are tying almost an anti-gun stance to states that don't allow open carry. I don't think you are being fair to other states.

Let's take Florida for instance. While it doesn't allow open carry, it's probably the easiest state to buy firearms and carry concealed. They even have special provisions to let you carry your firearm, loaded, inside your glovebox or center console, without a CCW permit. Combined with it's castle doctorine, and extending that castle docturine to your car, I'd have to say Florida is one of the most gun friendly states in the union, not just the south.

Me, personally, I don't care that I'm not able to open carry. I'd rather carry concealed.

 

[TX1911fan]

TexasSIGMan, I hope I am reading this incorrectly, but Penal Code 46.05 "PROHIBITED WEAPONS" states "A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
(1) an explosive weapon;
(2) a machine gun;
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
(4) a firearm silencer;
(5) a switchblade knife;
(6) knuckles;
(7) armor-piercing ammunition;
(8) a chemical dispensing device; or
(9) a zip gun.

Now, it does state that it is a defense to prosecution if the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursaunt to the NFA.

Seems to me that we do have NFA restrictions. Am I all wet?



I have heard that a lot of the gun restrictions in the South began as a result of freed slaves arming themselves, and their former masters being afraid. They assumed the laws would never be enforced against whites, so they passed these restrictions to keep themselves safe from former slaves. Anyone else hear this?

 

[wdlsguy]

Seems to me that we do have NFA restrictions.

As long as your federal paperwork is in order, possession of NFA weapons isn't a problem in Texas.

Don't get too hung up on the "defense to prosecution" language in the statute - military and LEOs also rely upon a "defense to prosecution" when possessing NFA weapons.

 

[Erinyes]

With the exception of our messed up CCW law, Georgia's gun laws are actually quite nice. No waiting periods, no licenses, you can keep a gun in your glovebox or console (or a rifle in your trunk, sans case). We have had the castle doctrine for a while, and beefed it up after Florida did the same. We're NFA friendly, as well (little bit of trivia, 3-round burst is not considered a machinegun under Georgia law).

And Alabama is only "technically" may-issue. In practice, it's just as shall issue as anywhere else, and absurdly cheap and easy...

 

[TX1911fan]

I see. So other states have laws that say that even if you are ok under the NFA, you still can't own supressors, etc.? Well then I'd say Texas is pretty great! Although I already knew that.

Now if we could just get rid of some of our CHL restrictions.

 

[wdlsguy]

So other states have laws that say that even if you are ok under the NFA, you still can't own supressors, etc.?

Correct.

 

[Prince Yamato]

I was one who has moved from upstate NY to NM and then to Texas, let me reitterate. The south is VERY gun friendly. In general most states outside of CA, MA, NY, NJ, and CT are very pro-gun.

 

[cbsbyte]

The south is VERY gun friendly. In general most states outside of CA, MA, NY, NJ, and CT are very pro-gun.

You need to add HI, IL, MD, and RI to that list.

 

[antsi]

-----quote-------
am looking for your thoughts on this issue. What do y’all make of this?
------------------

What I make of it is that you have chosen a couple of issues where the South does not look all that great, and globalized those issues to an overall rating of "gun friendliness." What the heck does gun friendly mean, anyway?

How about a different kind of test?
Since we're talking about an entire region, how about this test: if one can drive throughout the region on one's own home-state CCW permit, without having to disarm when going through any state or city.

I'm from the Midwest: Indiana. I can't even go into some of my neighboring states without disarming, let alone drive through the whole region.

How about Vermonters? Alaskans have it great in their own state, but they can't drive anywhere without disarming to go through Canada.

As a region, the South has to rank pretty high by this standard. In any other region of the country, you are likely to have some highly restrictive anti-gun neighboring states.

Also, as far as I know, no Southern state has its own AWB or restrictions on JHP ammo. They tend to have very favorable self defense laws. I don't know of any Southern state that requires a licence (FOID or FID) simply to posess a firearm.

You are criticizing the South for not having any wide-open unrestricted states. I don't think that's a very meaningful standard, though. For me, the South gets high marks for not having any highly-restricted anti states.

If the whole country mirrored the South on gun issues, we'd be a whole lot better off than we are.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

and ME

 

[kengrubb]

I've lived in 4 Shall Issue states: Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Washington. On CCW, NC was far and away the WORST, then FL, and probably a toss up between WA and PA. I regard these last two states as excellent on CCW. On guns generally, NC is also probably still the worst of these four states.

Of the ten Right To Carry states before Florida, only Georgia and Alabama were in the South, and Georgia's CCW law isn't well regarded despite being Shall Issue. The other Old Wave or Pre-Florida states are Washington, North Dakota, South Dakota, Indiana, Maine, Connecticut, New Hampshire and Vermont.

 

[kengrubb]

how about this test: if one can drive throughout the region on one's own home-state CCW permit, without having to disarm when going through any state or city.

With a Washington CPL, one can leave Seattle, hop on I-90 eastbound, and drive about 1,500 miles to Sioux Falls, SD. Actually, that's not entirely true. When crossing thru Wyoming on the Interstate, my New Hampshire license covers me. NH is cheap and available by mail. If one wanted to wander onto smaller roads, one could make it all the way to the Minnesota or Iowa border on a Washington CPL only.

To the North, Canada is obviously offlimits.

To the South, one must have an Oregon license to carry there. One must be a resident of a contiguous state, and it's a mostly Shall Issue process for non-residents.

To the Southeast, one could traverse Washington, Idaho and Utah all the way to the four states intersection of UT, CO, AZ and NM.

 

[kengrubb]

With a Florida CCW, one has darned good regional coverage, and nearly coast to coast ability to drive and carry.
http://www.packing.org/state/florida/image.php?stateimage=120

But in North Carolina, one can actually drive from coast to coast while legally carrying the whole way.
http://www.packing.org/state/north_carolina/image.php?stateimage=65

 

[Rebeldon]

Florida is the Gunshine State.