Is the USSC trying to foment revolution?

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jimpeel

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The USSC essentially shot the First Amendment to shreds today. Amendments be damned, the Congress now controls the amendment process through fiat legislation. This ruling is convincing evidence that the Constitution, as we know it, is dead.

Are these guys trying to cause a revolution by removing the only means beyond same of preserving the Constitution? I believe we have left preservation mode and are now entering the early stages of recovery mode.

The problem is, how do we recover it if the only means left to us is revolution?

The triumvirate form of government that was set up to protect the integrity of the Constitution has now fallen; and the judiciary now controls the country.

Tell me I'm wrong. PLEASE tell me I'm wrong!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105353,00.html

Supreme Court Upholds 'Soft Money' Limits

Wednesday, December 10, 2003

WASHINGTON — A sharply divided Supreme Court upheld key features of the nation's new law intended to lessen the influence of money in politics, ruling Wednesday that the government may ban unlimited donations to political parties.

Those donations, called "soft money" and totaling hundreds of millions of dollars,had become a mainstay of modern political campaigns, used to rally voters to the polls and to pay for sharply worded television ads.

Congress may regulate campaign money to prevent the real or perceived corruption of political candidates, the court ruled in a 5-4 decision. That goal and most of the rules Congress drafted to meet it outweigh limitations on the free speech of candidates and others in politics, the majority said.

• Raw Data: Opinion, McConnell v. FEC (pdf)

At the same time, the court said the 2002 law will not stop the flow of campaign cash.

"We are under no illusion that (the law) will be the last congressional statement on the matter. Money, like water, will always find an outlet. What problems will arise, and how Congress will respond, are concerns for another day," Justices John Paul Stevens and Sandra Day O'Connor wrote for the majority.

The court also voted 5-4 to uphold restrictions on political ads in the weeks before an election. The television and radio ads often feature harsh attacks by one politician against another or by groups running commercials against candidates.

Rep. Marty Meehan, D-Mass., a co-author of the law, called the decision a "major victory for American democracy." He acknowledged the law won't stop all forms of abuse in the system, but it ends the era when "special interest groups could control the national political parties and underwrite federal campaigns by writing unlimited checks."

The justices struck down only two provisions of the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act — a ban on political contributions from those too young to vote and a limitation on some party spending that is independent of a particular candidate.

The law hasn't stopped the flow of big money, but it has changed its course. In the months since the law took effect, several partisan interest groups have popped up to collect corporate, union and unlimited individual donations to try to influence next year's elections, including several on the Democratic side focused on the presidential race.

Supporters of the new law said the donations from corporations, unions and wealthy individuals capitalized on a loophole in the existing, Watergate-era campaign money system.

"Soft money" is a catchall term for money that is not subject to existing federal caps on the amount individuals may give and which is outside the old law prohibiting corporations and labor unions from making direct campaign donations.

Federal election regulators had allowed soft money donations outside those restrictions so long as the money went to pay for get-out-the-vote activities and other party building programs run by the political parties.

Soft money allowed the three national Democratic Party committees to match their GOP rivals nearly dollar-for-dollar on get-out-the-vote and issue ad resources in the 2002 election.

The Democratic committees raised about $246 million in soft money in the last election cycle, compared with $250 million for the Republicans.

Supporters of the new law said that in practice, soft money was funneled to influence specific races for the House, Senate or the White House, and that donors, parties and candidates all knew it.

In addition to Stevens and O'Connor, Justices David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer signed the main opinion. Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist and Justices Antonin Scalia, Anthony Kennedy and Clarence Thomas dissented on most issues. Swing voter Kennedy struck a compromise on one portion of the law. He said he would vote to uphold a soft money ban only as it applies to federal candidates and officeholders.

The majority's ruling bars candidates for federal office, including incumbent members of Congress or an incumbent president, from raising soft money.

The majority also barred the national political parties from raising this kind of money, and said their affiliates in the individual states may not serve as conduits for soft money.

Without soft money, politicians and political parties may only take in donations that are already allowed in limited amounts, such as a private individual's small re-election donation to his or her local member of Congress.

That means no more huge checks from wealthy donors, and no contributions from the treasuries of corporations or labor unions.

The Supreme Court's 300-page ruling on the 2002 campaign finance overhaul settles legal and constitutional challenges from both the political right and the left. Although the reform effort was passed by Congress and signed into law by President Bush, many politicians and others in the business of politics were leery of it.

The law is often known as "McCain-Feingold" — named for its chief Senate sponsors, Sens. John McCain, R-Ariz., and Russ Feingold, D-Wis. McCain built his maverick 2000 presidential campaign largely around the assertion that the old system of political money laws was full of holes.

The new rules have been in force during the early stages of preparation for the 2004 elections for president and Congress. The high court ruling means those rules remain largely untouched as the political seasons heats up. The first delegate-selection contests are just weeks away, in January.

A lower court panel of federal judges had issued its own, fractured ruling on the new law earlier this year, but the Supreme Court got the last word.

The justices cut short their summer vacation to hear an extraordinary four hours of oral arguments on the issue in early September. The court's regular term began a month later.

The case marked the court's most detailed look in a generation at the complicated relationships among those who give and receive campaign cash. The case also presented a basic question about the wisdom of the government policing political give and take.

The court has given government an extensive role in the area on grounds that there is a fundamental national interest in rooting out corruption or even the appearance of it. That concern justifies limitations on the freedom of speech, the court has said.

The case is McConnell v. FEC, 02-1674.
 
Re the openning question, I would think the answer would be the following. Not knowingly, but one can never be certain of some things. It strikes me that this action by USSC amounts to a significant diminishment of FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

Some will likely disagree, but that's the way I see it.
 
I doubt it. The liberals are the ones who came up with this opinion. They don't like the notion of absolutes, so it's unlikely they would, even philosophically, support the idea of a revolution.

That, and while the SCOTUS justices are certainly not dumb, I don't think they have the game theory background to really try to effect such a dangerous plan. I think they know their limits, and they're happy to go on ruling the country by decree.
 
Sadly, I interpret this the same way Jimpeel does. I think SCOTUS just struck down the first amendment.

And this ruling also says to me, we (SCOTUS) don't care what the Constitution says. We think its OK to limit some forms of speech during an election cycle. So we (SCOTUS) trump the Constitution.

Judicial Activism at the highest level. No place to appeal this.

Which could be a TERRIBLE precedent for the 2nd Amendment (to keep this firearms related.)
 
yes & know

they know it will take a new American revolution
to oust our kings.
They also know most Americans are more concerned with
the latest mike jackson/kobe bryant/survivor/ scandal or who the next idol
is.
You guys in AZ have got to dump McCain next election.
 
Revolution isn't the only way; there's Secession. Revolution would mean what? That a minority of activist Americans would control the passive masses? I can't see that working. Better to let the passive masses have their own socialist state while the activists and those who believe in the principles on which the country was founded go their own way.
 
gunsmith:

Re your "they know it will take a new American revolution
to oust our kings. They also know most Americans are more concerned with
the latest mike jackson/kobe bryant/survivor/ scandal or who the next idol
is. ", I'm very much afraid that you are a whole lot more right than wrong in your observation.

I don't have the answer either.
 
Moparmike:

I'm not rich enough to buy airtime.

In the past, I could get together with all of my buddies who felt the same way about a certain issue, pool our resources, and together we could buy airtime, and say whatever was on our minds about our issue (whatever it may be)

Now, we're gagged during the pre-election blackout period. We won't be able to say, for example, that Dean has flip flopped on gun issues, or that we advocate candidate X, or disadvocate candidate Y, or even match candidates stances to our issue.

edited to add:

My 1000th post! YAY!
 
What is Free Speech = Flag Burning. Pornography. Calling a sitting President a liar on national tv. Lying under oath. Using the F word when discussing national policy etc etc etc.

What is not Free Speech = Me and Geekwitha45, MoparMike,Zundefogle,Tallpine,Rusty Hammer, Thumper,Jim Peel and Mama06 taking up a collection and buying a 20 second soundbite on NBC to counter Howard Dean's assertion that the 2A applies only to members of the National Guard during the last 60 days of an election.

I say the Constitution trumps the SCOTUS and we should all pointedly tell our elected critters exactly that, pronto!

grampster
 
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Mopar, this Internet thing. Wow, talk about the appearance of corruption. Time to do away with it.

Free speech could be used for corruption, therefore it has the appearance of corruption. Since the government has such a compelling interest in fighting corruption and the appearance of corruption, all speech must be approved by Congress before it may be exercised.
 
Generalized understanding. Maybe.

Ok let me see if I have this straight.

SCOTUS just held up the law that no one can buy airtime (or other media sources?:confused: ) to have their say about something political during an arbitrarily chosen number of days prior to an election or political primary.

So if candidate X said "All gun owners are baby and cop killing monsters" during a speech, the only person who could refute it would be candidate Y during another speech?
 
Well, you could air an ad that said, "gunowners are NOT cop/baby killers".

You just couldn't say that candidate X is a jerk for saying that they are.


I just spent 1/2 an hour skimming the 700 page law, the law, and gave up...it's twisty as all heck, so I skimmed the relevent section of the "brochure for dummies" (80 pages!)

Long story short, it prohibits the use of monies (except for federal money) to buy airtime on TV/Radio within the blackout period by candidates, political action committees (pac), and political parties, and so on where the candidate is identifiable.

Now, you might not think that's a real big deal, UNLESS you also know this:

A) corporations for profit are prohibited from participating
B) corporations not for profit cannot take a partisan stance, without threatening their not for profit status (and thus render them liable to be eaten by the IRS and pooped out into the ocean)
C) The only entities that CAN do partisan activities are PACs, which have now been locked out of mass media communications during the blackout period.
D) INDIVIDUALS have hard limits to what they can contribute or spend on behalf of. (Interesting loophole, perhaps...but impractical)

Here's the kicker: grampster talked about a dozen people getting together to run a 20 second Dean ad.

How do we do actually execute this hypothetical scenario? Everyone writes me a check, I deposit it, and then I truck down to the TV station? Well, if I do that, it _might_ be interpreted as an illegal contribution, and off I go to jail. Why me and not all of us? Because I signed the check from my account. In any event, that will only work with a small number of people who trust each other.


For realistic/practical purposes, you'll have to erect a fairly specific type of corporation, according to IRS not for profit and Federal PAC guidelines. (Hence the split of the NRA and NRA-ILA)

OK, so to do things all nice and tidy, we form a 501(c) not for profit corp, so that the "Candidate X Sucks Rocks Committee" can accept and disburse funds. But wait, before we can talk about Candidate X, we have to form a PAC (there's some dark voodoo to PAC formation, I hear) and in so doing, we run afoul of McCain-Fiengold.


Long story short, Free speech isn't directly attacked, but the practical antecedents of it are.

He who can disrupt the flow of money can achieve whatever end they desire.

The REAL PROBLEM is that it's complex enough that Joe & Jane Normal won't understand they've been screwed unless you explain it to them, because it's messing with 2nd and 3rd orders of consequence rather than 1st
 
Ok, will someone explain to me why this is bad? There is something I am not seeing.
The bill was called the "Incumbent Protection Bill" by many who were opposed to it. By the standards of the law, the media would be the only ones able to mention any candidate by name during the 60 days prior to an election -- you know, the time when most people are just starting to pay attention.

The media could have an interview with, say, John Kerry the Catsup Queen and air everything he says, and then have no other candidate to counter what he says.

In the meantime, groups such as the NRA, NARAL, NAACP, NOW, GOA, ACLU, et al will be disallowed airing any message which mentions any candidate by name.

What we have all witnessed this date in history, December 10, 2003, is the prior restraint of free political speech in America. They claim that this will prevent political corruption or the appearance of corruption by removing the monetary incentive. What they fail to realize, or they do realize, is that it is the power that corrupts, not the money. The incumbents, in case anyone's not looking, have just been handed an inordinate amount of power.

There is, however, a "loophole" -- to use the popular phrase for conforming to the law against the wishes of those who wrote them -- and the NRA is about to exercise that "loophole". They want to gain ownership of a television outlet so they, like those mentioned above, can exercise their political free speech. That's the beauty of poorly written laws. Noone reads them and then they whine when someone abides by the law they just enacted in a manner they don't approve.
 
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Jimpeel:

Re "There is, however, a "loophole" -- to use the popular phrase for conforming to the law against the wishes of those who wrote them -- and the NRA is about to exercise that "loophole". They want to gain ownership of a television outlet so they, like those mentioned above, can exercise their political free speech. That's the beauty of poorly written laws. Noone reads them and then they whine when someone abides by the law they just enacted in a manner they don't approve", a fine point, finely made. For whatever it might be worth, it strikes me as beautiful.
 
They're asking for it!

Note:This rant I dragged over from where I posted it on another thread that seemed to have died out. Same subject.

===============

A little while ago, there was a thread which got the terd a-stirring. Something about "Do we have a moral obligation to obey unconstitutional laws?"

Here, folks, is the most tremendous opportunity we have been given in my memory to exercise.......what?........Morality! That's it!

This is a law that has to be disregarded and disobeyed or WE HAVE LOST THE RIGHT TO HAVE A FREE COUNTRY!! This is right up there with electing Hitlary as a test of whether we have a right to be free.

How do we go about giving this law the respect it deserves? I can advertise with all the money I have and no one would notice. If around the world trips were a dollar a dozen, my money wouldn't get me out of sight, but something has to be done.

When I signed up for the USAF lo those many years ago, the oath I took, and everyone who ever signed up for any branch of the military took, stated, in part, that we would "defend the constitution of the United States of America from all enemies foreign and domestic." Guess what? There are no foreign enemies we have ever encountered who give one damn about our constitution. They wanted our tails in a box. To hell with the constitution. The only "enemies" we have who are interested in dumping the constution are "domestic." This abomination proves the truth of that idea. And you and I gave our holy word that we would defend that paper. The US Constitution. Aren't we great as defenders? Let's see what's on TV. I've got a couple six packs and.....

I'm getting damned old. If they take me out tonight, I won't have missed much. Maybe it's us old phartz who, after all, allowed them to screw this country up, who should try to straighten it out.

I think that if some organization blantly refused to obey this law, we could get enough attention to get the various anti-liberty a**h*l*s involved to drop this idea. Then we might instill enough cajones [sp?] in the public to take on the anti 2A crowd.

As I understand it, a private citizen can pay for ads and do anything he/she wants to for a candidate any time he wants to. It's the corporations, such as PACs and the NRA who are the most effective who are being muzzled.

We need to form a public corporation that takes a stand for or against certain candidates for valid reasons and see what happens. The NRA is thinking of buying a TV station to get around the fact that the media can talk while private corps cannot.

I have a name. It just popped into my head. "The Liberty Project, Inc." We incorporate and start supporting some people. Dare the bastards to screw with us. I think we can keep stuff a churning for years or until this idiocy is dropped.

Any lawyers out there who want to get his/her name in the news??

Let's roll!

ravin[rantin]raven





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December 11th, 2003 03:07 AM
 
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