NIGHTWATCH
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ROTFL!
Is There A Best Combat Shotgun?
- Thread starter HS/LD
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ROTFL!Sir Galahad
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Well, the saying that you'll grow hair on your palms if you use a pump shotgun---that's a myth. Let's hope you guys with autos aren't playing "Beat The Clock" in other, how shall one say it, circumstances. "Speed is fine. Sleeping on the couch is uncomfortable."
"Speed is fine. Sleeping on the couch is uncomfortable."Nippy
Member
LOL
I'll have to shoot more pump shottys. I'll see if I beat it long and hard enough if it'll feel like the real thing.. a semi-auto
just kiddin around.
have fun.
Duke of Lawnchair
Member
Premature shooters??
sm
member
It is the shooter, not platform. One cannot miss fast enough to win-or STAY ALIVE.
Ask any instructor, ask anyone that has been in harms way, been in a gunfight--90 % is mental and all that emcompasses. 10 % is the rest, the least of which is platform, more important is gun fit (handgun, rifle,shotgun) and training/trigger time.
I grew up and stay with the antiquated, 'swing through method". Much like the "bird, belly , beak, bang" method in England. For me being able to match angle, speed -especially if changes occur- is best. Works for stationary targets--or I am the one doing the scootin' and shooting.
Of interest: pump guns actually have a unique characteristic, kind of an accident. Much like learning to drive a stick, then owning nothing but auto trannies...
At one time people learned to shoot, officers qual'd with revo's out to 50 YARDS. Since bean counters decided what guns to buy, training went south, higher mag capacities, and "spray and pray" was born.
The pump: many persons shooting doubles and the swing through actually had an advantage. After firing the first shot, the human eye/hand computer "re-evaluated" speed, angles ...and in shucking the shooter "bird belly beak, bang". Target down.
The new shooters didn't have this skill --always, like many today couldn't qual from 50 YARDS with bling bling blasters.
The shooters whom learned on single shots and pumps, transitioned very well. But again, trigger time allows them to shoot anything quite well.
Me, heck I don't care what you shoot.I'd probably grab my 29 y/o autoloader, but I'm sentimental... pumps-- Model 12's fit me, I'm biased, but these things shuck awful fast for a poor boy. 1300's fit, I have to buildup combs on 110's and 870's...but heck, I still can walk 1/2-2/3 way between sta8 and high house and break them. Unmounted gun-of course. Low 8 get 1/3--my best was 1/2 using an o/u.
I've won 3 Benelli's, a 11-87, some other stuff. IMO the 1100 is a better gun. Benelli's don't fit....and jiminey...I traded these in w/o taking out of boxs. Rather have a used 1911 I wanted. goes toward a pallet of shot I split with some others, cases of wads or kegs of powders. My priorities.
Ask any instructor, ask anyone that has been in harms way, been in a gunfight--90 % is mental and all that emcompasses. 10 % is the rest, the least of which is platform, more important is gun fit (handgun, rifle,shotgun) and training/trigger time.
I grew up and stay with the antiquated, 'swing through method". Much like the "bird, belly , beak, bang" method in England. For me being able to match angle, speed -especially if changes occur- is best. Works for stationary targets--or I am the one doing the scootin' and shooting.
Of interest: pump guns actually have a unique characteristic, kind of an accident. Much like learning to drive a stick, then owning nothing but auto trannies...
At one time people learned to shoot, officers qual'd with revo's out to 50 YARDS. Since bean counters decided what guns to buy, training went south, higher mag capacities, and "spray and pray" was born.
The pump: many persons shooting doubles and the swing through actually had an advantage. After firing the first shot, the human eye/hand computer "re-evaluated" speed, angles ...and in shucking the shooter "bird belly beak, bang". Target down.
The new shooters didn't have this skill --always, like many today couldn't qual from 50 YARDS with bling bling blasters.
The shooters whom learned on single shots and pumps, transitioned very well. But again, trigger time allows them to shoot anything quite well.
Me, heck I don't care what you shoot.I'd probably grab my 29 y/o autoloader, but I'm sentimental... pumps-- Model 12's fit me, I'm biased, but these things shuck awful fast for a poor boy. 1300's fit, I have to buildup combs on 110's and 870's...but heck, I still can walk 1/2-2/3 way between sta8 and high house and break them. Unmounted gun-of course. Low 8 get 1/3--my best was 1/2 using an o/u.
I've won 3 Benelli's, a 11-87, some other stuff. IMO the 1100 is a better gun. Benelli's don't fit....and jiminey...I traded these in w/o taking out of boxs. Rather have a used 1911 I wanted. goes toward a pallet of shot I split with some others, cases of wads or kegs of powders. My priorities.
Nippy
Member
RE: Island Beretta
I think the term was used ok.
Its about the magic.
I ain't ever seen anything that was pureley repeatable in a LAB. Let alone a computer simulation! Thats why you calculate uncertainties (Estimated maximum error which may occur in a measuremet/test) in the variables when doing a test and then you get a gaussian distribution. Then when the test falls into that distribution its ok, if the test results are out of the distribution then you know the test didn't work. I bet if you went out and calculated all this and came up with some numbers that had reasonable accuracy you'd find that this test repeated over and over would fall within an acceptable standard deviation.
I think the term was used ok.
Its about the magic.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
THE DEFINITIVE BEST COMBAT SHOTGUN
...is the one you have in your hand when you need it.
...is the one you have in your hand when you need it.
Mannlicher
Member
One thing that just jumps out at you from these tests, is that these guys went into this contest without knowing how their selected shotties would shoot. Their over all skill level still had them shooting pretty good.
I have a new 20 inch IC choked, rifle sight barrel on my old Wingmaster. The first thing I did was head off to the range to see how it shot, and to adjust the sights if needed. Patterns were spot on with 00, and after some adjustment, shoots Rottweil slugs to point of aim out to 100 yards. I would not think of carrying any gun that was not checked out first.
A pretty good read though, and shows that training does pay off.
I have a new 20 inch IC choked, rifle sight barrel on my old Wingmaster. The first thing I did was head off to the range to see how it shot, and to adjust the sights if needed. Patterns were spot on with 00, and after some adjustment, shoots Rottweil slugs to point of aim out to 100 yards. I would not think of carrying any gun that was not checked out first.
A pretty good read though, and shows that training does pay off.
"THE DEFINITIVE BEST COMBAT SHOTGUN
...is the one you have in your hand when you need it."
How do you figure ? It may be the only one you have. It may even save your life, but that doesn't make it the best. Only adequate.
Very interesting article Nice to see something besides; what is your faviorite ___________ . I will try some of those drills and see what happens. As you mention, it is a PITA if you don't have steel targets.
...is the one you have in your hand when you need it."
How do you figure ? It may be the only one you have. It may even save your life, but that doesn't make it the best. Only adequate.
Very interesting article Nice to see something besides; what is your faviorite ___________ . I will try some of those drills and see what happens. As you mention, it is a PITA if you don't have steel targets.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
well, if it's not available for use when you need it, it's not doing its job.
Harold Mayo
Member
My $0.02...
I'm not a shotgunner. I prefer a semi-auto carbine over a shotgun and would prefer a full-auto carbine or SMG if one were available. With that said, I would rather have a semi-auto shotgun than a pump for the same reasons that I would use a semi-auto rifle over a pump rifle. Speed? Yeah, a GOOD shotgunner can shoot a pump as fast or faster than a semi-auto but why worry about it? I'm not a GOOD shotgunner. AND I can't work a pump shotgun if I only have one hand/arm available. Can these COMBAT MASTERS? No, no more than anyone else.
I guess that I have two main reasons why I think that a semi-auto is better:
1. Manual of arms is more like a semi-auto carbine or rifle than a pump shotgun so you don't have to learn something else.
2. You stand far more of a chance of using a semi-auto shotgun effectively if one arm is injured than a pump.
I don't buy reliability of pumps vs. semi-autos. I know A LOT of people will disagree, but I've never seen the kind of failures that people attribute to Benellis and other semi-auto shotguns. I've seen far more people short-stroke a pump than I've seen semi-autos fail.
My own choice for a CQB shotgun would probably be a short-barrelled Benelli but, for general use, something like an 870 or 590 for overall durability.
I don't personally believe that anyone has built the "perfect" shotgun yet, though. Changing the receiver on a Benelli to steel would be a good start, IMO.
I'm not a shotgunner. I prefer a semi-auto carbine over a shotgun and would prefer a full-auto carbine or SMG if one were available. With that said, I would rather have a semi-auto shotgun than a pump for the same reasons that I would use a semi-auto rifle over a pump rifle. Speed? Yeah, a GOOD shotgunner can shoot a pump as fast or faster than a semi-auto but why worry about it? I'm not a GOOD shotgunner. AND I can't work a pump shotgun if I only have one hand/arm available. Can these COMBAT MASTERS? No, no more than anyone else.
I guess that I have two main reasons why I think that a semi-auto is better:
1. Manual of arms is more like a semi-auto carbine or rifle than a pump shotgun so you don't have to learn something else.
2. You stand far more of a chance of using a semi-auto shotgun effectively if one arm is injured than a pump.
I don't buy reliability of pumps vs. semi-autos. I know A LOT of people will disagree, but I've never seen the kind of failures that people attribute to Benellis and other semi-auto shotguns. I've seen far more people short-stroke a pump than I've seen semi-autos fail.
My own choice for a CQB shotgun would probably be a short-barrelled Benelli but, for general use, something like an 870 or 590 for overall durability.
I don't personally believe that anyone has built the "perfect" shotgun yet, though. Changing the receiver on a Benelli to steel would be a good start, IMO.
sm
member
I tend to prefer steel receivers also. Of course I'd prefer to have machined action like my SX1 more readily avail too.
A # of us have and use a SX1. Some are set up for HD, though they do nicely in combat stages. For a lot people -especially ladies , teenagers, and small frame guys I suggest the 1100, a youth stock is perfect, for the missus--but Hubby can still use it.
Pumps, I like the model 12, I really like this gun, some have ext the mag, have a second bbl and the gun will not quit. Had the money I'd set one up--In a heartbeat.
Even the 20 ga youth 1100 some ladies have --I wouldn't want to face one!
Pumps, again youth stock on an 870 ( 12 or 20 ) fits a lot of HD. but some ladies have run some stages for training and did well.
I like semis, but I shot a LOT of competition. I think in a semi the SX2 is a good choice, the stock fits me, and I'm biased--I admit that.
Pumps, if one can't find a good used from Big 4 , then I usually suggest the one that fits b/t the 870 and 1300 , ( get rid of that stupid safety on the new 870--quick) .
HD/LD set up for the $ is a good value, I think HD/LD is smart, very smart he has more $ in ammo than gun.
870 express --with that stupid safety changed-mag ext, patterened, and ammo downrange is also very very good.
These two I choose because IME enough difference in stock dimensions to get close out of box fo rmost people, easily to fine tune fit, and priced so they too can pull a HS/LD.
Or Scour for a used 1100, do same, BA/UU/R
A # of us have and use a SX1. Some are set up for HD, though they do nicely in combat stages. For a lot people -especially ladies , teenagers, and small frame guys I suggest the 1100, a youth stock is perfect, for the missus--but Hubby can still use it.
Pumps, I like the model 12, I really like this gun, some have ext the mag, have a second bbl and the gun will not quit. Had the money I'd set one up--In a heartbeat.
Even the 20 ga youth 1100 some ladies have --I wouldn't want to face one!
Pumps, again youth stock on an 870 ( 12 or 20 ) fits a lot of HD. but some ladies have run some stages for training and did well.
I like semis, but I shot a LOT of competition. I think in a semi the SX2 is a good choice, the stock fits me, and I'm biased--I admit that.
Pumps, if one can't find a good used from Big 4 , then I usually suggest the one that fits b/t the 870 and 1300 , ( get rid of that stupid safety on the new 870--quick) .
HD/LD set up for the $ is a good value, I think HD/LD is smart, very smart he has more $ in ammo than gun.
870 express --with that stupid safety changed-mag ext, patterened, and ammo downrange is also very very good.
These two I choose because IME enough difference in stock dimensions to get close out of box fo rmost people, easily to fine tune fit, and priced so they too can pull a HS/LD.
Or Scour for a used 1100, do same, BA/UU/R
Well thanks '73!
Just following the advice of guys like yourself and Dave.
BTW just ran to WalMart for a telephone extension cord this morning and... came out with ten boxes (1000) of target loads and 2 boxes of clays in aticipation of this weekends shoot. I have about 30 gallon milk bottles in the garage filled with water and waiting for some 1oz. slug interaction also.
Regards,
HS/LD
Just following the advice of guys like yourself and Dave.
BTW just ran to WalMart for a telephone extension cord this morning and... came out with ten boxes (1000) of target loads and 2 boxes of clays in aticipation of this weekends shoot. I have about 30 gallon milk bottles in the garage filled with water and waiting for some 1oz. slug interaction also.
Regards,
HS/LD
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