Is there a "maximum" velocity for hard cast bullets?

[adcoch1]

Been working on an idea or two for some high velocity hard cast loads, but I don't cast myself yet. So before I go off half cocked and lead up a barrel or two, is there an upper limit for velocity of non jacketed bullets? I am looking at some big bore applications, if that matters. Thanks!

 

[Duvel]

I'd head over to castboolits, lots of good info there.

 

[ReloaderFred]

It can be done, but it takes a little effort. It also depends on what you consider "high velocity".

I push a 420 gr. gascheck bullet to 2,200 fps through my .45-120 Sharps, which is built on a Browning B-78 action. I get no leading at all from it, but I'm not just plopping a cast bullet over some powder and hoping for the best, either. My load involves a large amount of IMR 4895, the gascheck and 12 grains of Super Grex, which is no longer available from Winchester, but which I have a good supply of.

So the answer to your question is, yes, cast bullets can be driven to high velocity in a large caliber, as long as you do it right.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[adcoch1]

Thanks Fred, that is right in the range I am looking at. How do you like the 45-120? Its one of the cartridges I am looking at...

 

[TimSr]

There is a formula used for the right cast bullet hardness for the chamber pressure of the application for obturation purposes. I've been pushing BRN18 bullets to full 44/357 magnum pistol velocities for years with great results. The Bull-X 255GR SWC ones I'm shooting in 454 Casull are very aged, and of unknown hardness, but I suspect may be harder than 18, but I have no issues with them either.

My experience with cast rifle bullets is very limited.

 

[Drail]

It's sort of like the speed limit on the Autobahn - there is indeed a maximum velocity limit - but so far no one has been able to achieve it.

 

[theleo]

Castboolits is the place to go for info. There's give and take to cast bullets. The faster you push the the harder they'll need to be. If you're punching paper it's not much of an issue. If you want some sort of expansion for hunting you'll have a problem. If you're not going to be casting you'd probably be well served at looking at commercially cast bullets with gas checks.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Short, quick answer:
~1,600fps with plain base bullets
~2,200fps with gaschecked bullets.

There are techniques and methods to extend these, but involve more effort and expense than is practical.

 

[ReloaderFred]

adcoch1,

The .45-120, when fully loaded, isn't for everyone. It's a thumper, on both ends. I like shooting it, but I try to limit my shooting to no more than about 20 rounds at a setting, or I develop a really bad flinch, and I'm usually not that recoil sensitive. I'm shooting nothing but smokeless powder in mine, but the more mildly loaded black powder shooters probably aren't getting the recoil that mine produces.

My rifle only has a 24" barrel, but it's a heavy octagon and is really muzzle heavy, plus I've put a elastomer recoil pad on it, which really helps. I also wear a shooting glove on my trigger hand because the recoil causes the lever/trigger guard to hit my middle knuckle, and if I don't, it gets sore. To give you an idea of the amount of recoil, I have to stand the tang sight back up after each shot, since it tips forward under the recoil.

The brass is also expensive, at about $2.50 per case, but I've yet to wear one out (other than Bertram), and I've probably got about 300 cases for it. Just don't buy Bertram brass, since it won't hold up and the quality control just isn't there.

With all that said, I won't get rid of it until I'm just too old to get behind it anymore. It's an attention getter when on the range, and most people will fire it once and then hand it back. I did have one female game warden shoot it 22 times once, and she only quit because that was all the ammo I had left. She would shoot and giggle, shoot and giggle, but most men won't shoot it more than once.....

You can almost get the same performance from Ruger Number One /Siamese Mauser loads in the .45-70, with the proper rifle. That would be cheaper, since .45-70 brass is really common, while .45 Basic brass (3.25" long) isn't.

Hope this helps.

Fred

PS: It's still not for sale........

 

[adcoch1]

adcoch1,

The .45-120, when fully loaded, isn't for everyone. It's a thumper, on both ends. I like shooting it, but I try to limit my shooting to no more than about 20 rounds at a setting, or I develop a really bad flinch, and I'm usually not that recoil sensitive. I'm shooting nothing but smokeless powder in mine, but the more mildly loaded black powder shooters probably aren't getting the recoil that mine produces.

My rifle only has a 24" barrel, but it's a heavy octagon and is really muzzle heavy, plus I've put a elastomer recoil pad on it, which really helps. I also wear a shooting glove on my trigger hand because the recoil causes the lever/trigger guard to hit my middle knuckle, and if I don't, it gets sore. To give you an idea of the amount of recoil, I have to stand the tang sight back up after each shot, since it tips forward under the recoil.

The brass is also expensive, at about $2.50 per case, but I've yet to wear one out (other than Bertram), and I've probably got about 300 cases for it. Just don't buy Bertram brass, since it won't hold up and the quality control just isn't there.

With all that said, I won't get rid of it until I'm just too old to get behind it anymore. It's an attention getter when on the range, and most people will fire it once and then hand it back. I did have one female game warden shoot it 22 times once, and she only quit because that was all the ammo I had left. She would shoot and giggle, shoot and giggle, but most men won't shoot it more than once.....

You can almost get the same performance from Ruger Number One /Siamese Mauser loads in the .45-70, with the proper rifle. That would be cheaper, since .45-70 brass is really common, while .45 Basic brass (3.25" long) isn't.

Hope this helps.

Fred

PS: It's still not for sale........

Haha yeah I shot one a few times, and they kick pretty good, but 338 win mag has been my fun gun in the past, and I am building a rifle for whatever I decide on so I can weight it accordingly. I am going solid copper for hunting bullets, but I want a reasonably powerful plinker load with a cast bullet too. Hence the questions. Actually I am building a big bore wildcat with similar characteristics to 45-120.

 

[Reefinmike]

Not to sound like a broken record about powder coating, but using the cheap and easy shake n bake method of powder coating bullets, i have 164gr .358 lswc cast from 9.5-10bhn alloy going 1555 fps out of my 6" revolver and 2,000fps out of a 16" levergun. Coat your cast bullets and people say they are good for 2600+fps.

 

[Sam1911]

Cast bullets are a lot more flexible than most shooters think, when it comes to velocity.

Missouri Bullets has a great write-up on how to figure out where you should be with the right hardness for the PRESSURE you're working at: https://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

It's really pressure that's the driving factor, not velocity.

Bullet fit to the bore is critical, appropriate hardness (not just maximum hardness) is very important, too. Making sure those two things are right will get you zipping along pretty fast.

At some point gas checks become a very good idea. Have to play with your own gun to figure out when too much is too much. The maximum BNH number you're likely to find bullets cast in is around 22. That equates to a pressure of about 28,000 CUP. Velocities achievable without exceeding that pressure will vary with different bullets and different powders.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

All hard cast bullets are not created equal. A bullet with a BHN of 16 can not be pushed as hard as a BHN 20 or 22 bullet but bullet hardness isn't everything or even the most important thing. Sometimes loaders use too hard a bullet for the application and get more leading than a too soft bullet. The correct bullet diameter is most important followed but the correct lube and amount of lube. If you are getting leading near the muzzle only you are probably running out of lube before the bullet leaves the barrel. There is a lot that goes into not leading a barrel but it's not that hard to figure out.

Also, with the new coated cast bullets preventing leading is even easier. The costing prevents leading surprisingly well and at a minimal cost. I shoot the 405gr BHN 18 bullet sold by Missouri Bullets to over 2100 fps and experience no leading in a Marlin leveraging and an original Trapdoor rifle. I didn't need to switch to the coated bullet.