Is there any way citizens and LE can come together and make it work like it is suppos

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kbr80

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This is what a FEW bad LEO's can cause to happen. Its a shame, but that is the way it is. One screw up can spoil it for all. Is there any way citizens and LE can come together and make it work like it is supposed to?





Public distrust of city police under scrutiny
Posted by Ron on Tuesday, September 13th, 2005 at 21:19 (Views: 66)

A Baltimore judge assigned the city's new grand jury yesterday to investigate "the lack of confidence that exists between many members of the public and law enforcement" - another signal of continuing distrust of police officers in courtrooms.

Sworn in yesterday, the panel of 23 grand jurors will work for four months to prepare a report suggesting ways to restore public confidence in the Police Department.

"This is not a court issue," Circuit Judge Joseph P. McCurdy, who assigned the topic to the grand jury, said in an interview. "This is something the community as a whole needs to address."

As evidence that this is a problem worthy of its attention, McCurdy told the grand jury about two recent cases in which city judges doubted the word of police officers.

In the past two weeks, two weapons violations cases have crumbled - and convicted felons who admitted carrying loaded revolvers were able to avoid five-year prison sentences - because judges believed the guns might have been discovered illegally.

The officers' stories about how they knew to search the men didn't add up, judges said in making their rulings.

McCurdy also told the grand jury that the proliferation of T-shirts displaying disdain for law enforcement, such as the ones that read: "stop snitching" and "[expletive] the police," are another indication of simmering tensions.

Lt. Frederick V. Roussey, president of the city's Fraternal Order of Police, said he welcomes the idea of a grand jury review of the topic.

"I'm all for any avenue to improve things," he said. "It's a great idea. Citizens have an interesting perspective."

With its subpoena powers, the grand jury has the ability to force people - from average city residents to Police Commissioner Leonard D. Hamm - to testify.

Often, the mere assignment of a particular topic to a grand jury shows concern from the bench.

In January, as State's Attorney Patricia C. Jessamy was passing out copies of a local homemade DVD called Stop Snitching to legislators in Annapolis, Circuit Judge W. Michel Pierson asked a grand jury to research witness intimidation. And amid media accounts of problems with prisoner health care, Circuit Judge Stuart R. Berger posed questions in May about medical services at the city jail to a grand jury.

Although many grand jury reports end up collecting dust on a shelf, Judge Joseph H.H. Kaplan, a circuit judge for more than 28 years, said the projects can sometimes spur change.

"This is such an important issue that I think the report could be taken seriously," he said. "If their suggestions aren't too way-out, maybe the police will listen. There obviously is a need for the police to be close to the community."

McCurdy, a judge for almost two decades, said he remembers when potential jurors would say that they would believe an officer on the witness stand simply because they'd been taught to trust the police.

In recent years, he said, "the pendulum has gone the other way."

"More and more prospective jurors said they did not trust police officers because of some negative personal experience which they had with a particular police officer or because of a general feeling that law enforcement officers as a whole were not trustworthy," McCurdy said in a speech to the grand jurors, a written copy of which was provided to The Sun.

A fresh grand jury is selected every four months. The members meet every weekday on the second floor of the Clarence M. Mitchell Jr. Courthouse downtown on North Calvert Street. Aside from their grand jury assignment to research a criminal justice topic, they perform the traditional duty of deciding which criminal cases justify indictments.

In 2001, a grand jury researched a question similar to the one posed by McCurdy. Circuit Judge Audrey J.S. Carrion asked that grand jury to investigate whether there was decreased confidence in the Police Department. The grand jury report, issued shortly after its term ended in May 2001, indicated that confidence was indeed lacking.

That report singled out police brutality, police perjury and racial profiling as the main factors in the public's distrust of police.

Among the grand jury's recommendations: improve police training and professionalism, maintain a strong presence in the community and conduct a "positive spin campaign" to highlight the positive aspects of the Police Department.

McCurdy asked the new grand jury to determine whether any progress has been made since that last report and to "suggest solutions to the problems that still exist."

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-te.md.jury13sep13,1,1339556.story?track=rss
 
Clearly the problem is that the people perceive the police of Baltimore to be corrupt. To think that obviously guilty criminals got away because the judges didnt think the cops even had probable cause to search! The very thought- that police are so distrusted that they cant even violate the constitution in capturing dangerous criminals!

A classic sinking ship technique- attack the symptoms because the problem itself is too entrenched to fix.
 
When ohio was working hard on its ccw it almost became public knowledge that the police unions that were against ccw were not speaking for the normal police person on the street. It was mentioned in main stream news and what not but it is long gone now.

One thing that is often mentioned on this and other sites is how folks set their cruise at 1 or 2 mph over the speed limit and they are often passed by police vehicles, marked or unmarked, doing way over that. Now if lights are on, fine. If they are sneaking up on someone, fine. But in my experience I see them speeding a lot and then pulling onto another road and they are going a long ways down that road until they are out of my sight. So when I see that happen I wonder if they could just run their lights to let folks on that road know they are comming up at over 10mph over the speed limit since there is no reason to try and say they are trying to arrive at their destination covertly.

I can honestly say that on this site and many others there are lots of great police folks around and if my town was made up of just them I would have no problem.

As it is, I know my local sherriff station has one bad apple and therefore I behave as if all could be a problem since it has been proven to me personally that problems can and do exist and I honestly can not afford to act otherwise.

Overall I consider a police person to be doing a job that few want. But when the discussion gets into the full auto rifles they can use for just their job, or the way some of their raids are done, I honestly don't see any solution coming anytime soon.

A search about the militarization of the police should turn up a lot of threads about this on this site and others.

I strongly support those officers who do good work.

My problem is that it is a bit hard around here to tell the difference all the time, and even worse it is known that while some do good work some are known to do bad or poor work and that is why there is a problem in my opinion.
 
Among the grand jury's recommendations: improve police training and professionalism, maintain a strong presence in the community and conduct a "positive spin campaign" to highlight the positive aspects of the Police Department

Well, that just about says it all, don't it?

Police are already trained to a high level of corruption. It is a political operation from top to bottom.

That "strong presence" is what is causing the problem. They are enforcing laws which don't target violent individuals, they target gun owners and people on the other side of the War on Some-Drugs. The chickens are indeed coming home to roost.

"Spin campaign." Yes, they need to hire a top marketing firm to forever dash the use of the well-earned and commonly used terms, "driving while black" and "testa-lying."

Most judges pretend that this doesn't exist. "Police can be believed because they have no bias, no reason to lie. Police have quotas? I don't believe it."

Rick
 
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Authority can be a powerful drug. It takes a person of particularly good character to keep themselves in check when handed the power of authority.

Couple that with the criminal eliment that have NO respect for authority or the law , and we are stuck in the middle of these two factions.

Clearly there is a significant percentage of LEO's that have trouble dealing with the ordinary law abiding citizen on an equal basis. An attitude of them vs us is all to easy to adapt in a LEO position - and the " I am the one in charge " mentality is how it expresses itself .

That kind of "in your face" authority and power is seldom easy to accept by good , law abiding folks who believe they should be treated first of all with respect.
 
Please, folks, DO NOT turn this into an LEO bashing thread. The question I asked stands, lets find some REAL solutions to the growing US v THEM problem, and put things BACK to how they are supposed to work, police and citizens working together.
 
An increasing amount of police departments are allowing their officers to dress in black and wear ski-masks while on duty, particularly when kicking in people's front doors. I cant help but think that when you start dressing in the steriotypical guise of "the bad guys" that people are going to start becoming a little uneasy.
 
They certainly can get along.
All it takes is to get control of the elected officials they work for.
Need to do away with appointed Chiefs of Police too.
Elect them like Sherriffs. easier to keep the honest.

Sam
 
All it takes is to get control of the elected officials they work for.

Thats only part of the problem. If the elected officials pass a bad, unjust, unconstitutional law, well, is it the lawmakers fault, or the officers who decide to uphold that law without question? Just following orders, or just enforcing the law has been used to justify most any bad conduct. The solution to this problem has to come from the citizens and the police (rank and file officers) that do the actual LE work.


Example: With the confiscations in NO, now we know there were not many, but one is enough IMO. An order came down from a Police Chief, who had no standing to issue said order. NOW, the LEO's, does not matter from what agency, know that this was an unlawful order. That in flies in the face of freedom, and this country. They know this. Cause if any of them claimed they did not, they need to quit LE now. So, knowing that what they are doing, violating civil rights, in the process of doing so, they assaulted, entered houses uninvited, and stole legally owned property, all from an illegal order from a police chief. Elected or appointed officials are not gonna listen, and could care less. If we are going to make a change, it will have to start with citizen and LEO's working together for common ground. Once that is achieved, the elected and appointed will have no choice to look and change.

REMEMBER, the police and the politicians, elected and appointed work for us. All the things wrong are placed right at OUR doorsteps, because WE allowed them to do it. Lets change that.
 
I get the feeling that many police officers are conditioned to believe that they are on a different level of existence than the average citizen. Police may start referring to citizens as "civilians" as if they, themselves, are not. Some conditioning is probably necessary to instill the required amount of authority to enforce the law, but it seems that it goes beyond that to being a select class above the rest. Once there is a select class that believes itself as "better" than everyone else, there comes the risk of corruption. Right and wrong become legal and illegal, which becomes government and citizen, which becomes royalty and subject, ending in master and slave.
 
Another LEO bashing thread, even if it wasn't meant to be... :rolleyes:

What most people don't understand is that it isn't up to police officers what gets enforced, its your politicians that you elect that make laws...not public safety people...
 
Is there any way citizens and LE can come together and make it work like it is suppos

If both police and public freely carried openly or concealed as they saw fit, the question would be moot. The fuss in this case is about RKBA being infringed. The police will not be popular when people get arrested while not doing anything wrong.
 
Please, folks, DO NOT turn this into an LEO bashing thread. The question I asked stands, lets find some REAL solutions to the growing US v THEM problem, and put things BACK to how they are supposed to work, police and citizens working together.
If you seek a solution to a problem you must first understand the cause. It is only natural that people will come to increasingly distrust and resent police as our society continues to transform into a full blown police state. The police, firstly, are more and more being asked to enforce laws which violate fundamental liberties, such as the liberty to keep and bear arms, or to ingest into one's body what one wishes to ingest. As government becomes more intrusive, and uses the police to enforce this intrusiveness, the resentments will only continue to grow. As they grow, cops too develop an us vs them attitude. "If you are not a cop, you are a criminal just waiting to be caught." This can only get worse as our government becomes more tyrannical. Tyranny cannot come to your front door except wearing a policeman's badge.

The solution to the problem is to make the police accountable to the public, that is to say, anyone who carries a badge and gun as an agent of government needs to be made 100% accountable to the public they serve. That means that anyone with command rank in a police agency needs to be subject to regular elections. Additionally, every individual cop should be subject to being ousted and prosecuted for his crimes against the people he serves. Perhaps a referendum system could be established whereby if enough signatures are collected, an individual cop can be subject to a vote in his community, and if more vote to oust than to retain, he goes. There is no right to keep your job if you are a cop. He keeps it only during good behavior, according to the judgment of the community he serves.

As it stands now, the perception is that armed and badged agents of government are above the law. Take the case of the FBI sniper who got away with those murders at Ruby Ridge, for example. That kind of thing just happens way too often. If you or I would go to jail for something, then someone with a badge needs to go to jail if they do that very same thing, orders or no.

Secondly, this problem will not cease until we stop our slide towards a police state, and reverse it. We need to restore the Fourth Amendment, and we need to respect the Second Amendment. We need, in fact, to reign the Federal Government in, and place it again in the chains of the Constitution. That means that if the authority for an action cannot be found in the four corners of the Constitution, then the authority does not exist. They are fooling no one when they assert that the authority to regulate commerce between the states gives them the authority to tell you what you can grow and use on your own land, for example. This, among other things, is the mark of a police state, and must stop before this problem is going to be rectified.
 
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Elect them like Sherriffs. easier to keep the honest.

Not so.
As in our case in PB County, the elected sheriffs in the past have lied numerous times, like any politician before election. Once in office while you do have the opportunity to vote out the next time, a lot of damage can be done in 4 years.

Unions control the rank and file so like any public employee, you have to commit murder in front of a live national tv broadcast to get fired. And even that would be subject to review.

I don't think it can be changed the way our society is set up. In fact it will only get worse as government expands and more public employees are added to keep the over bearing laws and regulations that strangle this free society enforced.

The power to police is a strong drug. I have seen people I know change to people I don't recognize after joining law enforcement.

I also understand that the most docile personality can become indifferent when dealing with the sub human element of violent crimminals on a day to day basis. This will trickle over into the "typical" traffic stop attitude or citizen encounter.

I don't feel that law enforcement is even close to being trained and maintained for this type psychological encounter.

But as this country has shown time and time again, nothing ever gets fixed when there is a problem.

We throw money at it and sweep it under the table.

Out of site, out of mind.
 
Well, Baltimore is predominantly black and has a high crime rate
http://www.city-data.com/city/Baltimore-Maryland.html
so, there is probably a high welfare dependence there also. That would indicate that the 'race card' wedge enters into the equation. Once the people are pitted against the police you have a built in 'adversarial' relationship. If there really is corruption and brutality, it comes from the top.
 
As in our case in PB County, the elected sheriffs in the past have lied numerous times, like any politician before election. Once in office while you do have the opportunity to vote out the next time, a lot of damage can be done in 4 years.
Simple answer. Allow for removal by popular vote before the regular election day. Simply allow that if you collect enough signitures from people of his community, a special election will be held to decide if he is to be ousted. If the popular perception is that he is corrupt, then he does not have the trust of his community, and should be removed from office.
 
It works like it's supposed to where I live. Small farm community of about 1000 folks. We have three LEO's... one for each shift. I usually spend range time with one or more of them each week, as do several other folks in town. When on duty, it's not unusual for the guys to sit on someones porch swing and visit for a while. They've made mistakes, but so have some of the townspeople. The key is communications, and ethics. Read ethics to include oversight. Our town board has the ability to publicly review every call LEO's go on at every months town meeting. This isn't utopia, but it suits my attitude, and I haven't felt the need to lock my house in over 20 years.
 
I lived in Baltimore for 8.5 years. The omly way there is going to be a positive relationship between a majority of the community and the police is if the police assist criminals in their activities.

Well there is just a bit more going on here than bad police. Many in the community are criminals or are immediate family members of criminals. Do you really believe you are going to have a positive police community relationship when the police are responsible for putting half your family members behind bars?

The Chief of Police getting caught on fraud and mis-management of funds for his girlfriend doesn't help but I really don't think there is anymore coruption in Baltimore than any other city, there certainly wasn't an open secret like NO, LA and NY about coruption.
 
"The key is communications, and ethics. Read ethics to include oversight."

+1

I would say communications would be the place to start.

How about the head LEO announcing that the LEO/.gov have no legal responsibility to protect anyone except those being held and informants ?

Lots of people get a little :what: when I inform them of that. :evil:

Also lets look at the data that your department has gathered that led the department to recomend to the politicains not to let "just anyone" carry a gun and to ban "asault weapons".

I realize that not all police departments take these viewpoints (Thank goodness it gives me hope for our country :) ) but I believe that there is a very large overlap between people who do not trust their police and police who do not trust their people. And from my readings I am afraid that many more people live under this type of department than otherwise. :barf:

NukemJim
 
I'm not a cop, but I do work with them.

I see a lot of commentary here suggesting what the police can do to make things better, and most of it is correct. Does anyone believe that the public at large has any responsibiilty for the problem? I have seen plenty of poor behavior on both sides. We've heard plenty about how corrupt and disrespectful and stupid all cops are. Can anyone cite a time where they contributed to the problem? Self-critique is hard, but necessary.

We all work. I'm sure we all know of incompetence in our own profession. Does that make us all corrupt? Would you consider it fair if someone held you accountable and treated you with contempt because they once had a bad experience with a doctor, lawyer, truck driver, contracter, etc...? Have any of you ever made a mistake at work? Have any of you ever done something that is clearly stupid in the clarity of hindsight?

Cops are people, and people make mistakes. Cop mistakes can be far more damaging than some other jobs, so it's importance to keep them to a minimum and be willing to correct them when they happen. But, if you think you can find any group of men and women who will be beyond any shadow of corruption, you have an unreasonable expectation.

There are some cops out there on a power trip. There also is no doubt that policing has become more militaristic in recent years. And like the community at large, cops have become less civil and polite. These are bad things that need to be changed. But what do we need to do to make things change?

We can start by treating people the way we expect to be treated. You cannot have an attitude and not expect to get into a testosterone contest. Act politely and then you can demand polite treatment and if you don't get it, complain. If you are afraid to complain then be content to be treated poorly, you can't have it both ways.

Argue your case in court, not the curb. Also, if you aren't going to complain where it may do some good, don't bring your discontent to the radio, newspapers or internet forums. Do you like it when people talk behind your back but not to you? It doesn't look any better when you do it.

Take a deep breath. No one likes to be corrected and that's what most police contact is. We quickly jump to defend our actions, usually faster than our brains work. Again, resist the urge to argue your case at the curb.

Educate yourself about the law as it applies to your lifestyle. Many cops reflect their employers discomfort with handgun ownership. I have found LEOs to be a leading source of handgun legal misinformation in my town. I have also found that an ability to disagree logically and citing statute is a very effective way of stoping the stupidity.

IMHO
 
I had a very positive police encounter last weekend. I was visiting an old shooting buddy of mine in another county a few hours drive away. We were going to shoot our M-4geries (an AR 15 set up like and M-4), so we went to the closest range open to the public, which happened to be the Sheriff's department range. On our way in to sign in, I saw a sign that said "No Live Ammo In This Building." I pointed it out to my buddy, who then informed the deputy leading us in that we were both carrying, and asked if that was a problem. To which the deputy said we'd have to leave them in the car. When we got back again, two deputies thanked us for informing them of that, and spent the whole afternoon with us helping us sight in our new rifles, both newly mounted with EOTEC holographic sighting systems. Not only that, but when we got low on ammo, they broke open their duffel bags and pulled out a few mags loaded up with .223 for us to shoot. These guys were good ambassadors for policemen everywhere. No, I didn't like the no carry policy, but it is their range and they get to make the rules there. I went away thinking a lot better of police in general. Perhaps we need more cops like these guys.

P.S. During the shoot, one of the deputies said to the other, "Don't we live in a great country where anybody can own and shoot essentially the same weapons that we are issued for duty?" I wasn't 100% sure there was not a hint of sarcasm in what he said, but I am mostly sure he was sincere in saying it. That's the kind of attitude that warrants respect and good will from the public.
 
kbr80

Please, folks, DO NOT turn this into an LEO bashing thread. The question I asked stands, lets find some REAL solutions to the growing US v THEM problem, and put things BACK to how they are supposed to work, police and citizens working together.
Well for starters, LEO's could start remembering who they work for.

I've touched on this before, and i seem to remember i got some support then. Look - the average person you have to deal with, which means the average "civilian", is not a criminal. We are simply regular people.

Do we deserve to be treated with felony stop techniques when we get pulled over in the minivan with 3 kids in the back around 5:30 in the evening, when we dont come to a complete stop at the red light before making that right, or for driving 15mph above the speed limit?

No - we dont - and you know it.

When was ask "Is there a problem officer?", we want to be treated with courtesy and respect, and get a straight answer. We do not want to hear "Just give me your license and registration, sir."

Start supporting gun owners in public. Tell your chiefs to shut up about their support for the latest gun control law. If they wont, then make your support for us known in spite of what the chief says.

In a nutshell, start treating us the way YOU expect to be treated, rather than assuming we are all violent felons who just escaped from prison. Yes, i know you all want to go home at the end of the day - but use a little common sense would ya? The 5'2", 100lb woman in the Honda Oddessy is not a threat - stop treating her like one.

Somehow the LEO's of not so many years ago understood this basic concept. Perhaps its time the current crop learns it.

Answer yourself this question: Do you really like knowing that the average person now views you with fear and contempt rather than respect and appreciation? Wouldnt you like us to just say "Hi" when we're standing in line next to you getting that morning coffee rather than avoiding you and trying to get out of there as fast as we can so you dont notice our inspection sticker expired yesterday?

Oh - one more thing - we're not "civilians" to you. We are "citizens" - or alternatively "customers". Try to remember that.
 
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