Is there are market for the return of Sharps rifles & ammo???

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ole Humpback

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
415
Location
IN, USA
I'll admit, I'm a Sharps lover (and who in their right mind isn't). I've been looking at, researching, and weighing the pro's and con's of various Sharps for about a year now and I keep noticing how many people make a Sharps, but how few do it with quality. It seems to me that if you want a cheap Sharps, a good used Pedersoli, C. Sharps, or Shiloh is the way to go. If you want new without the custom build wait, its Pedersoli or C. Sharps and at that you're still looking at 2wks to 4 months wait. And if you want the best that money can buy, its Shiloh with a 20-24 month build time. Now I'm not complaining at all about quality, I've got my eyes set on a Sporting Deluxe Pedersoli in 45-70 and a Sporter #1 Shiloh in 45-120.

After a while of researching the history of the Sharps, I noticed that the Sharps Manufacturing company also made ammo for its arms as well. I had a light bulb moment a few days back thinking about how Henry Repeating Arms came back to life with the new Henry rifle, and it got me to thinking: is it possible that Sharps could be resurrected as well? Sharps has at least one item in its favor if they did come back: ammo with their name on it. I can get brass and/or ammo for 45-75 Sharps (this is standard 45-70 brass but different bullet for more powder), 45-90 Sharps, 45-90 Express (a Sharps DG cartridge), 45-100 Sharps, 45-110 Sharps, 45-120 Sharps, and 50-90 Sharps. Now, most of these are BP, but I'm beginning to find that the brass makers are making there brass strong enough for "hi" power smokeless loads. Theres a 45-120 smokeless load out there driving a 500gr slug at 2000fps.

So, if the Sharps Manufacturing Co. were to be resurrected, how plausible do you think it is and what would be needed for it to be successful?

Personally, my list of items for success is:

1.) $1000 price point (could be less, but I don't think it likely given what Henry is charging) quality entry level Sharps in a common caliber such as 30-30, 30-06, 243/270 Winchester, 25-06, some variant/variants of the 7x57 Mauser, and your typical 38-55 Winchester & 45-70 Govt. This would be a single trigger model with a standard walnut stock, blued metal finish, sling swivels, and standard rifle sights but able to accept a modern scope mount and base.

2.) Offer a few mid ranged ($1300-$1800) models upgraded from the base with coin colored finished receivers, a recoil pad, and some subtle engraving or wood checkering for those who want a nice Sharps but aren't in the premium market. Offer some of these models in the more popular traditional Sharps cartridges. Offer one model in the above with a grade nicer wood stock & checkering, double set triggers, and Creedmoore sights. Have the rest tapped from the factory for Creedmoores.

3.) Bringing back the more popular old Sharps cartridges, but modernize them for smokeless loads to enable a large reloading option and strong loads to compete with existing rounds.

4.) Offer a premium level Sharps, not custom built, but able to compete with $2000+ ($2000-$2700) Pedersolis at a slight price savings. Chamber it with the two most popular base model common rounds, but offer the traditional Sharps chamberings primarily. Keep the standard rifle sights on two models while making Creedmore's or Goodwin's the primary sight. Have coin colored receivers, Grade III wood, recoil pad, artful engraving, schnable pistol grip stock, Pewter/German silver forearm end cap, wood checkering, and double set triggers. Offer the top model with a Malcolm 6x scope.

Thoughts, input?

*EDIT*

I think my thread would be more aptly named: Is there a market for the return of the Sharps Manufacturing Co.?
 
As much as I want a Sharps I would have to say no. The market for single shot rifles in modern calibers is all but cornered by the Ruger No1. Which would be very tough to beat.

3.) Bringing back the more popular old Sharps cartridges, but modernize them for smokeless loads to enable a large reloading option and strong loads to compete with existing rounds.
I am not sure the large volume cases, the 110 and 120, would be safe to use with modern powder. The 45-70 and 45-90 can already be had in modern loadings that are too hot for a Sharps action.

Part of what makes a Sharps a Sharps is the black powder in the case. It can be a pain to load, it is a mess to clean but nothing can rival the smell, sound and feel of black powder. The bp loads are more than enough for just about any game on the planet. I like the idea but if I need a magnum rated single shot I would buy a Ruger No1.
 
I do not think the sales volume is there for one of the majors like Ruger to tool up and produce Sharps rifles for half or two thirds the price of the imports and plain finsh American rifles. I don't think a small operation like Shiloh could cut their prices that much even if they were not selling all they could make at the present prices.

I would be concerned with "strong loadings" of period calibers. Some of the old guns are still in use and would be at risk from overloads.

I guess you could design a rimless extractor for a Sharps but it would be a challenge. The standard rim extractor is itself an add-on to a paper cartridge design, and is kind of sqeezed into the limited space available.

Colt took a crack at the Borchardt business in the 1970s when the Ruger No 1 was new and everybody was oohing and aahing over single shots. But they could not make it stick.
Shiloh says they have one in the works but as far behind on orders for their existing products as they are, they are not going to be quick about it.
There actually is a Borchardt Rifle Co but it seems to be pretty much a one man operation turning out a few nice 1878 pattern rifles at high prices.

C. Sharps makes 1874 and 1875 Sharps rifles, and now the 1877. They also build the mechanically superior Winchester 1885 design. Strangely enough, they have recently added the Remington Hepburn instead of setting up for the hammerless 1878 Borchardt.
Their plain grade 1875, starting at $1370 is probably the best buy in the BPCR field... if you can stand its rather homely styling vs 1874 and 1877.
 
Is Quigley Down Under old enough for a remake yet? If they make a scene where Matt snipes his adversaries and uses the bp smoke as cover for repositioning while the bad guys fire errantly into the now vacant cloud, there would be a LOT of built 700's up for sale.
 
Al Story is making the Sharps Borchardt in Silver City N.M. I just purchased a part for an Old Reliable from him. The part worked perfect on the one I was working on an 1886 Mod.
 
I do not think the sales volume is there for one of the majors like Ruger to tool up and produce Sharps rifles for half or two thirds the price of the imports and plain finsh American rifles.

I wasn't talking about one of the majors, I was thinking more along the lines of someone like Anthony Imperato resurrecting the Sharps Manufacturing Company. I also understand that BPCR comes into play, but how many people out there would buy a Sharps if they had to shoot BP loads solely? Not many. Hence, why you chamber it in a few of the most commonly used off the shelf at Wal-Mart calibers. Get the name out there and make money off the volume of sales of the plain jane rifles that most people would buy. You can also offer more traditional chamberings on the intermediate & premium models, but make them strong enough so that you can load them with smokeless if you want. The brass is already being made for hi power smokeless, just get the action & chamber up to snuff for it.

I would be concerned with "strong loadings" of period calibers. Some of the old guns are still in use and would be at risk from overloads.

Like I said, there is a smokeless 45-120 load out there pushing a 500gr bullet out the muzzle at 2000fps. Clearly, replica actions are strong enough for it. Also, most reloading manuals state that their loads aren't for original Sharps. If the action & chamber can handle a hi-volume smokeless load, it will handle a BP load just fine.

I think the market is there, however when most replicas are chambered in only one or two smokeless loads that can be readily found, most people won't buy it. Here in Indiana, if you want a deer rifle, you buy a replica High Wall, Low Wall, or Sharps in 38-55 or 45-70 and cut the case down so you can have a rifle cartridge of legal length or you buy a rifle that is chambered for a pistol cartridge. The WSSM brass is within the legal length with only .045" of trimming, but not many people are willing to spend the $3500 my FIL did getting his 270 WSSM Model 70 re-barreled & re-chambered for 358 WSSM to end up with a single shot bolt action that used to be a repeater.
 
You are riding the thin line between modern demand for a peripherally usable sport rifle, and the traditionalist/black powder shooter. BP shooters consider it blasphemy to want to use smokless loads in rifles original for black powder (Sharps, Creedmore type guns, etc). Yes, you can do it, and the newer steel guns will take more, but you will probably never get the two different factions (BP & smokeless shooters) to agree on matches, rules, tounaments, and such), so you'll be shooting alone, and that doesn't make for a very big demand for new guns or games. I have a Shiloh, and I shoot smokless loads (.45-70) that exceed loads for the .45-110 with black powder. That is WHY I chose the .45-70....I'm just not a blackpowder guy. I don't shoot competitively, just for my own recreation and personal challenge.
 
If I remember correctly I attended the first ever Shotgun News Gun Show in Reno NV. (That's how it was billed) I believe it was in the middle to late 70's. The guy from Shilo Sharps Big Timber, Mt. had a very small exhibit and I stopped by. At that time his top of line model was just under $1000. Of course I didn't have a pot to pee in at that time. The guy said it would take about a month to finish the rifle and all I needed was a $100 deposit. That was as close as I ever got to owning one.
 
I guess you could design a rimless extractor for a Sharps but it would be a challenge. The standard rim extractor is itself an add-on to a paper cartridge design, and is kind of sqeezed into the limited space available.

Jim, I just figured out how to do just that. The parts are already there for it on a Sharps, minus 1 piece modern of technology.

The answer came to me in three phases of thought. First off was the Hartford Collar that most Sharps have. Its a cosmetic item that sits at the breech of the chamber. The block sets flush against it. Mount a CRF claw extractor to the collar and get the collar to rotate through a 60-90 degree range of motion.

The next piece of the puzzle was how to get the collar to lock in place when the breech is closed and rotate when the breech is opened. For this, you'd need to cut a set of very fine square threads on the breech of the barrel that would allow the collar to rotate & translate away from the breech about .005"-.010" and you would also need a set of helical cut gear teeth on the left hand side of the collar.

The final piece of the puzzle is the falling block itself. There needs to be a set of rack teeth cut on the breech face of the block inside the block race at a specific spot on the block to allow it to turn the collar at the proper time in the block's range of travel so that the collar is locked & seated with the cartridge in battery when the block begins to rise across the back of the collar. In order to do this, 2 worm screws with 22* straight cut drive gears are needed. The drive gears would form the head of each worm screw. The rack teeth would engage the first drive gear/worm screw. This worm screw would in turn turn the second drive gear/worm screw. This worm screw would then turn the collar to rotate, translate, and lock into battery the cartridge.

I'll need to make a few sketches to show this better, but it is very possible.
 
Sounds awfully complicated to me and on a gun you are trying to bring in well below the price of established brands.

Let us know how it works out for you, and show pictures from your single shot safari.

I cannot help with the irrational policies of Indiana fish and game.
 
Sounds awfully complicated to me and on a gun you are trying to bring in well below the price of established brands.

Considering GM (as in the auto-maker General Motors) makes darn near the exact worm screw/drive gear that I'm talking about for less than $20 and Browning has been using rack & pinion gear sets for its BLR since 1981, I don't think its too far a leap in complexity to make it work.

If I, as a apprentice/hobby machinist with a simple manual lathe can cut a square thread & gear splines with a simple 4 axis CNC, imagine how much faster & cheaper a real machinist could do it with a modern HASS CNC Machining center. I know, I've seen parts with tighter tolerances than those found in firearms and just as small machined from billets in seconds by professionals whereas it took me hours to do the same thing with manual machines.
 
The WSSM brass is within the legal length with only .045" of trimming, but not many people are willing to spend the $3500 my FIL did getting his 270 WSSM Model 70 re-barreled & re-chambered for 358 WSSM to end up with a single shot bolt action that used to be a repeater.
I just got one of these last week. It's not exactly a Sharps replica. It's an AR upper in .358 WSSM. Ten shots of 200 grains @ 2,750 fps.
 
I just got one of these last week. It's not exactly a Sharps replica. It's an AR upper in .358 WSSM. Ten shots of 200 grains @ 2,750 fps.

Well, they're now considering changing the case length from 1.625" to 1.8". If it does go to 1.8" next year like they are talking about, all I have to do is cut to length a standard 358 Win case and my dads 358 Win BLR will be the closest thing to an off the shelf Indiana deer rifle.
 
j2crows,

That guy from Big Timber, Montana, his name wasn't John Shofstahl was it? Wore a huge white Stetson with a crease down the middle of the crown? I met this guy at a Shutzenfest my former employer put on back in the mid-70's. That shutzenfest was called "The Coors Shutzenfest", had shooters from all over the world competing in a 4 or 5 day shooting match. I believe John shot a .38-55 rifle. If its the same guy, he did have some very beautiful firearms on display.
 
I recently read an article in a gunmag where a chap bought a 458 and loaded it in a
wide variety of handloads, some of them using 'smokey'. It seems like a fun approach to me.

DumasRon
 
I love old guns, blackpowder, old American sixguns and levers especially. As for Sharps' rifles, they're beautiful and awfully interesting but I really have no desire to own one. They're just way too bulky and heavy for my purposes. I have to draw the line at 10lbs for a sporting rifle and even then, I'm gonna be picky. My single shot tastes are more European in nature.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top