Is there something special about 40 S&W?

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stevemis

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I've been drooling for a while over the CZ Champion, which supposedly is available in 9mm and 40 S&W:

http://cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=39

According to the site, it was designed for IPSC Open. While the site alleges the pistol is also available in 9mm, I'm unable to find one anywhere. I spoke with Matt Hunter over at CZ-USA and he claims to have never even seen a 9mm Champion in person.

I don't currently have any 40 S&W pistols in my stable. I'm not doing any competition, and I'm unsure if it's something I'd pick up in the future. Ideally, 9mm would be fine for me, since I already have a decent stock of ammo and own several other pistols in that caliber.

Is there something specific rules-wise that makes 40 S&W attractive for IPSC or other competitive sports where this pistol might be used? I'm trying to grasp why the 40 S&W model would be so much more popular than 9mm.. given the price difference between the two cartridges.

Thanks!

Steve
 
It's the difference in Major (.40) and Minor (9mm) calibers, shots made outside the Alpha ring with a Major caliber are scored differently (higher). Also the reactive steel targets can be hit lower and still score a knockdown with a .40, with a 9mm you had better hit them in the sweet spot.

That is for IPSC as far as I know the rules. IDPA may be different
 
I agree with all of the above plus this. Power factor is easier to make in both IDPA and IPSC.
With .40 in IPSC you can easily make major power factor but with 9mm but it involves seating the bullet way out and then having to change the chamber slightly in the barrel. Or somthing like that I do not shoot IPSC and am only going on stuff I hear from those that do.
 
Awright, lookit.

In IPSC, you score better with ammunition of Major power factor, bullet weight times muzzle velocity divded by 1000 = 165+
Also, in every Division except Open, the minimum caliber to be scored Major IS .40. And .40 will go in a smaller frame gun than a .45 and get more rounds in a given length magazine.
It is just a natural for IPSC-USPSA. 9mm is of little use or interest except as overloaded for Open (scope sight and compensator) or in Production (double action) where everything is scored at Minor.


It is not as advantageous in IDPA where only .45 ACP in CDP is required to shoot at Major power factor. A careful handloader can make a light loaded .40 Minor develop less felt recoil than a 9mm, but not by much.
 
In IDPA land there really is no advantage to shoot the .40cal unless you think the extra bit of size difference will help your scores.

CDP is shot with .45acp and SSP and ESP are able to be shot with 9MM guns. If you reload, and your gun will cycle low powered ,40cal rds, then some say the .40cal will shoot softer then depending on the make of the gun the .40cal can be shot is SSP or ESP.

IPSC as mentioned above is totally different due to their scoring system.

A lot of guys shoot what they carry on your side of the 49th and if they carry the .40cal they often shoot the same gun in IDPA.

Take Care

Bob
 
Thanks for the input. Adding another caliber (40) might make some sense. I'm going to go price compare 40 vs. 9 next... might not be an easy decision to make.

Thanks again!

Steve
 
The only thing special about the .40S&W is that it's rightfully nothing more than a 10mm Special. :D
 
I dont shoot in competition YET but I do own a .40s&w, its a great round. Some of my friends shoot 9mm and there is at best a 15% priced difference. I also expect to see that gap tighten a bit as .40 gets more popular.
 
I'm a fan of CZ's modified for use in IPSC Limited Division but that pistol is not well suited for Open Division, which really requires an ultra-tuned gun with an electronic dot site to be competitive. Expect to pay at least $3k. If you're prepared to do some heavy modifications and to add a dot site, you might make this CZ work in Open, but I would not start off in IPSC that way. Take one of your stock 9mm's and compete in IPSC Production Division to see if you like it. You'll only need a cheap holster and mag pouch. You'll need at least four 10 round magazines, five would be better. This will also give you time to research an Open gun if that's the direction you head.

Regarding 9mm vs 40cal, either can be loaded to Major power factors, which you'll need in Open Division, though it's tougher to do right with the 9mm. I wouldn't load 9mm to Major unless the gun was specifically designed to take 9mm Major loads (I know a pistolsmith that specializes in this design if you're interested). If you use one of your current 9mm pistols and compete in Production Division, you'll automatically be shooting Minor so you can use your current ammo stash.
 
Some serious things to consider.

Number 1 the CZ champion are not easy to get. I know I tried. If you did get one parts are not easy to get, you would need to have stuff one offed. The CZ factory says they are backordered and does not know when they will have more (what they mean is they are not making them). Angus Hobdell tried to get one for me and they would not even sell it to him. After 2 years I gave up.

The CZ Champion in 40 would not be competitive in IPSC/USPSA open division because you lose too much magazine capacity vrs 9mm or 38 super. The 170mm 40 cal high cap mags they have only hold like 19 rounds. The 9mm 170mm mags can be modifed to 28.

The CZ champion in 9mm would be a much better choice but the gun is not beefy enough to make major. Even Angus who is a sponsered CZ shoot and shoots a CZ champion 9mm only shoots minor PF and uses it as a steel match gun. The slide stop is the weak point and major 9 would break this part in short order. It would be a very low milage part.

In IDPA it would be strait up illegal in either 9mm or 40 because of the compensator. This is a USPSA/IPSC/Steel gun. It would be a much better steel gun than anything else.

If you really want a gun of this type of configuration look at the Tanfoglio and EAA guns. They are CZ clones and you can actually get them. Tanfoglio makes a very slick eric graffel model or you can get a EAA witness in 9mm and then order a open 9mm slide w/ comp.

http://eaacorp.com/handguns-witness-elite-gold-description.html

http://www.henningshootsguns.com/guns_pistols.html
 
40 S&W is the answer to a problem that doesn't exist. There is no reason for it. It's too hard to control, over penetration in some contexts and ther are existing calibers that solve whatever issue your trying to solve with this caliber.

Hits count, period. A 9mm will do the job fine and is easier to control. If you need more knock down power step up to a .45 ACP which is still easier to control than a .40.

MTC
 
This is the competition shooting forum. For practical pistol matches 40 is the smallest pistol round that makes major power factor in limited class (iron sighted guns). For this reason alone 40 does have it's place. With ammo prices I would love to see them drop the power factor 155 and let 9mm make major in limited. Fat chance on that though.
 
I'm not sure overpenetration is that much of a problem in IPSC or IDPA. My 9 overpentrates that cardboard all the time, although I've seen some cowboy shooters with loads that would go thru the short side of a 1x2 target holder.
 
I personally love the flat shooting 40 S&W. The round is hot and fast coming out of the barrel and it is classified a big bore pistol caliber.

There is nothing wrong with a 9mm. Absolutely nothing. It is truly an effective and accurate round. The introduction of the .40 was wrongly added by putting down the 9mm which is mostly hyped up to sell gun magazines at the time.

The .40 gains some added benefits of a bigger charge which gives more ballistics and a wider diameter bullet.
 
I personally don't think the 40 is any harder to control than any other caliber. 9mm's can be snappy, and 45's can be just as snappy and hard to control when loaded with the same bullets and we can compare apples to apples. A 45 acp with 185's loaded to similar velocities of a 40 - 180 will be just as difficult to control. When you load the 40 long with a 200 gr bullet, it becomes less snappy and more of a push, relative to the 200 gr 45 load that a lot of shooters of IPSC/USPSA tend to like. There are even some who load the 220 gr bullet in the 40 to compare to the push of the 230 gr ball load of the 45. When comparing equals, they are about the same. One thing that the 40 gives you in competition pistols is the ability to hold more ammo in the same package.

A Para double stack will hold 16+1 in standard cap mags. In 9 mm you need to shoot minor, but it will hold 18+1, in 45 it will only hold 14+1.

But then in my case I shoot em 6 at a time, 140 gr RN - 40's in moons in a 610.. since I shoot minor, that is one very controllable revolver.. it hardly moves..
 
I'm unable to find one anywhere. I spoke with Matt Hunter over at CZ-USA and he claims to have never even seen a 9mm Champion in person.
Click to expand...

The first CZ I ever shot was a 9mm Champion. Guy at the local range had one and let me shoot it. The trigger was gorgeous and the gun shot like a 22 with a little bit more noise. What a gun.

The rpice difference between 40 and 9mm narrows when you reload but over the long run (10k rounds or so) 9mm is definitely cheaper. That extra 300 bullets a case makes a difference even when you use light powder loads in the 40.
 
I see no advantage...whatsoever...in the gun shown for competition shooting. It's not a good choice in 40.

If you can't find that gun in 9mm, then try to see if you can get a very similar gun from Tangfolio.

Get in touch with Henning Walgren...he has his finger on the pulse of Tangfolio guns in the USA...and can steer you well.

http://henningshootsguns.com/guns_pistols.html


Kyle F.
Ohio Section Cordinator - USPSA
Grand Master shooter
 
A practiced set of hands and a well-handling gun in 40cal isn't really at a loss to someone shooting IDPA. I shoot with my 40 M&P and place higher than my experience equivalent shooters with 9mm. In IDPA you can't work the gun over and make your times drop like a rock. The safety and practical requirements make most guns equal. The only difference is how well you handle it, and how reliable it is. I've seen Glocks and CZ's choke, likely due to user error or bad ammo, but choke nonetheless. I've been happy with my gun, and it hasn't let me down yet.

I can't speak about the other competitions for lack of experience, but for IDPA, go out and get yourself a $400-$600 carry gun and practice with it a lot with the money you save over a $2000 custom.
 
OMG. "I'm the only one in this room professional enough that I know of who carries a Glock .40." BOOM Nice.

I think the kids up from might be better with the gun.

Anyways, I can see why an IPSC shooter would want to carry a gun in .40 to help with score. I, personally, want to carry a gun that I can shoot well. I carry a Glock 23 and can handle it fine. I have shot IDPA and prefer my Les Baer in .45 because it shoots great and knocks down steel better than either. I have watched 9mm take multiple rounds to push over the steel, not so bad with .40 and not bad at all in .45
 
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