Is this a worthwhile deal?

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PennsyPlinker

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I came across an old style Ruger Blackhawk .45 Long Colt with the mottled finish. It is in the used section of the gun case, but as best as I can tell, it was never fired. Apparently it was part of a large collection from someone selling it off. It still has that plastic disk that comes in the rear of the cylinder and there is not a speck on it anywhere. They had a stainless model as well for the same price, but I am leaning towards the first one as looking more "authentic". That one had a very slight residue around the chambers.

The asking price is $449.00. There is no negotiation on that, take it or leave it. Any opinions? I am leaning towards an older one as the grip is just a little bit beefier than the newer style, and I have beefy hands. :p
 
Only the New models had the plastic cylinder discs. NM's started in 1973 not sure when the discs started being used but it was later. The older OM grips were actually a bit slimmer than the NM ones for the BH and SS models. The SBH's are a different one altogether as they're a bit longer.

Regardless, $449 is too much. Heck, you can occasionally find a brand new one for that price range.
Curious, what's this "mottled" finsh you mention? Blackhaks are available either with a blued finish or are stainless steel.
 
PennsyPlinker

When you say old style, do you mean a Blackhawk with the three screw frame? Also, what's the barrel length?
 
Umm...yeah, a lot's not making sense here.

"Mottled"? If it REALLY is a case-colored (even fake-case as Ruger does from the factory on *Vaqueros* (new and old) then it's worth a whole lot. A very, VERY few factory case-color Blackhawks made it out the door, all of which are worth bucks. If it was done aftermarket by Turnbull's or the like, OK, it's still worth way more than $450.

If on the other hand it's just a screwed up normal blue finish, it's worth $250 tops.

Next: you say "old style"? Not a standard term. Do you you mean "old MODEL", as in "three screw"? If you don't know what I mean by this, google is your friend. In general, "old model" refers to the pre-1973 lockwork, transfer bar wasn't standard (it may have been retro-fitted later). An Old Model Ruger will have to be half-cocked before the loading gate can be opened...'73 and later, including ALL Vaqueros, you open the loading gate with the hammer down to unlock the cylinder. New Models have two cross-pins ("screws") behind the cylinder running sideways through the frame, Old Models have three same as a Colt SAA (hence "three screw").

You need to learn to spot what case colors look like at a glance. If this is REALLY a case-color Ruger Blackhawk, snatch that bad boy up in a hurry, factory or aftermarket hardly matters. I've seen pics of a factory fake-case Blackhawk so they do exist in very small numbers...mostly experimental production. If it's aftermarket, the gun has likely been tweaked in other ways, possibly right up to a line-bored cylinder and custom barrel and the gun's now worth $1,200+, more if it was done by a big-name gunsmith like Linebaugh, Stroh, Bowen or the like. If it's aftermarket it's likely REAL case hardening, not Ruger's fake chemical-color process...and I'd call it 75% odds it was in Turnbull's shop for the finish work as lots of custom smiths use him for high-end finishes:

http://www.turnbullrestoration.com//handguns.htm

Browse around there for close-ups of what real case hardening looks like. You SURE that Blackhawk is anything like it?
 
My NM Single Six says "New Model" right on the left side of the frame. Do all NM Blackhawks have this too?


I wish Ruger would have used something like the Mk I, MII, MkIII moniker with Blackhawks and Vaqueros. When a company comes out with a gun and calls it a "New Model" all's well and good while it is indeed the new model. Then when they come out with the following model, it gets really confusing to folks.

Sorry. Rant over. Back to the regularly scheduled posts....

More on topic, that would be a decent price for a NIB Blackhawk around here.
 
No question, the whole "New Model" designation was brain-dead from day one.

Calling the "New Vaquero" a "Vaquero" at all was crazy. They're different frame sizes. So people call the "Old Vaqueros" "Old Model" which again causes mega-confusion.

The most criminally stupid part is when they chambered the NewVaq in 45LC, creating the first Ruger 45LC that could NOT handle the mega-powered "Ruger ONLY!" monsters (some out past 44Mag ballstics). That's going to seriously bite somebody. The NewVaq should have shipped in 357 and 44Spl.
 
Jim

The more I think about it (and in the absence of any additional info from the OP), that maybe they were referring to an old model Vaquero, instead of a Blackhawk. They mention "mottled finish", like color case hardening; then they say they prefer the mottled one to the stainless model, because it looks more "traditional". Now an adjustable sight Blackhawk doesn't exactly look traditional, but a fixed sight Vaquero does. And there's also the part where they say they prefer the older grip to the newer one as it feels better in their hand, because the older grip is a little bit larger than the new ones. Kind of like the new Vaquero grip compared to the older model. Just some thoughts on the subject.
 
Thanks for the responses guys. I posted in a hurry, as I had to get out the door to a meeting, and wanted to get this up for some response before I left. I just got back home and am reading through the responses. So here is a little more detail, as much as I have at the moment. Part of what I am going to write is objective, and part is the gun counter guy - and we all know about gun counter guys, right? :evil:

I was standing there looking at the Vaquero .45 LC. I didn't like the grip that much, as it felt a little small for my hand. The gun counter guy said that the old model Blackhawk (or style, which may have been my word or his) had a slightly larger grip, and that they had a couple in the back used if I would like to look at them. So I said sure.

He brought two out, and told me they were Blackhawks. Now I know what I know, and I don't what I don't, and I am not ashamed to admit that. I am not sure if I was looking at a Blackhawk or a Vaquero. He said Blackhawk.

I typed mottled (in a hurry). I meant to write case colored. I read about that before I even got to the store, so it was not a surprise to me. I have no idea if it is genuine case hardening or just cosmetics, but it is definitely case coloring and not just a poor or abused bluing job.

I do not know about the three screw frame thing, but will do some research tonight or tomorrow. It does appear to have a transfer bar. The firing mechanism looks almost identical to the one on my Single Six, which I bought brand new in October, and says New Model Single Six on it.

But based on what I am reading so far in the responses, I first need to determine whether or not this particular gun is a Blackhawk, or perhaps a Vaquero. If I am reading right, the case coloring on the Vaquero is not all that special, but it would be on the Blackhawk. If it is a Blackhawk, and it is case colored, then I should snap it up, but if not, then it is not worth the asking price, or at least, the price is nothing special. I can live with that, and I suspect that the way things go for me, I would be very surprised if it turns out to be something where the people selling this thing do not know what they have. But I can hope... :rolleyes:
 
PennsyPlinker -- I'm no Ruger expert, but the most obvious difference between a Blackhawk and a Vaquero would be the sights. The Vaquero (new or old) would have fixed sights and the Blackhawk would have adjustable. I hope someone more knowledgeable will correct me if I am wrong.
 
Ok, in thinking 'bout this for a bit, I'm thinking the original poster is referring to a cc/blued New Vaquero rather than a Blackhawk. The New Vaquero would indeed have a slightly slimmer grip than the "old" one as he puts it.
 
Maddock has it.

You DO sometimes see Vaqueros customized with adjustable rear sights, usually stolen from an S&W J-frame of all things :). Lemme see if I can get you a pic...yeah, go here:

http://single-actions.phpbb3now.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1036&hilit=adjustable+sight+vaquero

All the guns pictured here are Vaqueros. Mine is the first pic, a "New Vaquero" (more on that in a sec) with a custom front, mostly stock rear (my rear sight "channel" is widened a bit but otherwise looks factory). The other two shown have fully customized rear sights. It's barely possible that's what you're dealing with: because it's a Ruger SA and has adjustable sights, the dealer is calling it a "Blackhawk" when it's a converted Vaquero. A converted Vaquero wouldn't have the "rarity value" BUT, if the conversion was clean, done by a decent gunsmith, odds are he's gone through the rest of it and it's going to run like a Swiss watch - again, at $450 a true bargain.

Factory Blackhawk frames look unmistakably different. See also:

http://images.google.com/images?q=r...US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

The most common rear sight configuration has the "ears" on the frame either side of the rear sight body to protect the rear sight body. Much less common is the "flattop" layout where the whole top of the frame (except for the ACTUAL rearmost part of the sight) is flat. If it's flat like that, snatch it like a thief. If it has three cross-pin screws, it's OLD - pre-1964 or so, and wasn't originally a 45 but a 44Mag most likely. BUY IT, period.

Starting in 2006 Ruger did a limited run of 44Magnum "flattop" reproductions but with two screws and the safety. It's possible such was converted to 45LC but that would be damned recent for an estate sale.

In 2005 Ruger did a run of a smaller-frame all-blue Blackhawk 357magnum flattop, 50th Anniversary edition. This is the only recent-production (as in 1973 and forward) Blackhawk build on a mid-size frame. It's *possible* one of those was converted to 45LC. In which case...well, it's worth about $450...then again, if it's also case-color it's been seriously modified and my take is, as explained more below, snatch it up.

Understanding Vaqueros:

The original Vaquero (now out of production) was built on the same larger, 44Magnum-class frame that all the SuperBlackHawks and most Blackhawks (except the 50th Anniversary 357). They shipped in large numbers, including 45LC on down. They are hell for stout but are "oversize" compared to other "cowboy guns". In 45LC they can fire special high-power "45LC+P" ammo that sometimes meets or even exceeds 44Magnum power.

The "New Vaquero" model is built on a smaller frame similar in size and heft to the Colt SAA. It cannot handle 44Magnum-class power. Ruger's factory calibers so far are 357 (like mine) and 45LC. Other than coming factory with fixed sights and a Vaquero-shape frame, this is the same gun as the 50th Anniversary Blackhawk 357 - the two share key parts including the cylinders. The manufacturers of the 45LC+P monster ammo are warning NOT to use the stuff in a New Vaquero. But if you can live with that limit, the New Vaq quality control is very high - these are on average more accurate than their bigger cousins and your odds of seeing a "lemon" are lower. That's why I own one and with no regrets at all.

---

OK, having said all that: the weaknesses of the Rugers are minimal and well understood. If there's any evidence the gun has been customized, and you like what you're seeing, I'd say grab it. It's not at ALL unusual for a guy to put $1500+ worth of customization into a $500 Ruger to get it tuned to absolute perfection (like line-boring) and then on his death, the widow takes it to a gun shop and get a "used Ruger" price.

To give you some idea what we're talking about, let's look at line boring. The barrel and cylinder are removed. A brand new high-strength cylinder with no holes in it is mounted. A special drill setup is screwed into the frame where the barrel was, and the cylinder bore holes are started specific for that frame. A factory Ruger might do 5" to 6" groups at 100 yards if typical. A line-bored gun might cut that in half or less. PLUS the cylinder will be tougher and the chambers will be properly sized. And then the action will be worked over.

People pay $2k or more for this sort of thing, m'kay?

So: if it really is a Blackhawk and it's case-colored, it's either a prototype Ruger or it's been customized. Either way, score.

If it's a Vaquero with adjustable sights, it's way custom. God knows how much more work was done past the sights. If everything looks sanitary, hey, go for it.

If it's a stock "old Vaquero", well...OK, if you WANT big power in the 45LC cartridge and you can do without adjustable sights, it's worth $450 tops, in mint condition. No special deal, but...not a ripoff either.

If you want the smaller handier NewVaq OR you want adjustable sights, give this one a pass.

---

I'd say don't judge nuthin by the grips because those get customized all the time for a particular owner.
 
Thanks again everyone, and Jim especially for a very detailed and informative response. The short answer is, it is just an older Vaquero, and I passed. But, thanks to the exchange here, I have learned a lot more about Ruger single action revolvers. So I still have my money, and they still have their gun. I was very polite with the salesperson in declining to buy it, but was still able to receive extremely poor treatment. It is a long story, but the short version is that he told me he was going in the back to find something he thought would suit me better, and ended up forgetting he was doing that, leaving me standing there very patiently for half an hour, and going off to help other customers.

It was not malicious I don't think, but it certainly was incompetent. I asked Mrs. Plinker if I had some kind of sign on my forehead that said, "Customer service people, please abuse me". :fire:
 
What do you all figure an "old Vaquero" in .45lc with the fake case colors is worth these days then? That does seem high.
 
250.00 does not seem real with todays prices for a full size blackhawk of any flavor so I think that price that was mentioned is in the buy it now or at least think real hard before you pass... a few years back maybe... not now.

The old vaquero's have increased somewhat in value. Guys that like em can't buy em new anymore... unless new old stock. They quit production. I don't think the gun mentioned was a deal by any means but it is not priced crazy from what I see. The ruger forums may have a more realistic price schedule.

As far as the customer service- I would call and talk to the owner. He just likely would want to know about the poor salesperson. Face it they don't get paid well and getting good guys that will work for the wages can be tough. I know as a business owner I would want to know.
 
I came across an old style Ruger Blackhawk .45 Long Colt with the mottled finish.
Click to expand...
Look at the right side of the frame, below and to the rear of the cylinder. Do you see two pins, or three screws? Three screws would be a pre-1973 "old model" (collector/enthusiast's term, not an official Ruger designation). Blackhawks also have adjustable rear sights. If there is just a groove running the length of the frame topstrap with no projection at the rear, it is a fixed sight.

I suspect this is a Vaquero myself, but we'll see how things shake out.
 
Good points, Jim.

It could be a vaquero, otherwise if it has collector potential and is not simply a roughed-up blued revolver-grab it.

Make it a shooter and not a 'Pretty' on the shelf. :D
 
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